Uncomfortable topics: Let's talk about race

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Yep. Now you get it.

Thinking/saying that you're part of the solution because you're not adding to the problem is a false equation.

It would be like a man saying to you, "I'm totally not sexist; I don't even hit my wife. If everybody treated women the way I do, sexism wouldn't even be an issue; therefore, I am helping to end domestic violence".

So because I feel that the officer was being racist is a direct result of my living in a neighborhood (try to find one in this city that doesn't have a high crime rate btw) that has a high crime rate?  Not that he was in the wrong, but I am wrong for being upset with what he said and for living where I do?

When my children are not accepted into programs because of their color, it is my fault for having them in a city school where they are the  minority?  Not that myself or my kids are being profiled?

Is that what you are saying?

I think that quote was a response to P3nt, not you Khara

It was a response to Navkat, actually. I didn't notice that Khara had posted four seconds before I did. I'll edit my post with a quote to make it more clear.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Am I doing a good thing by not kicking my dog or robbing a liquor store right now?

Am I reducing crime by not committing a crime?

"I could be adding to the problem, but I'm not; therefore I am reducing the problem" is bad math.

Fair enough on the math thing I concede that point but with the dog and the liquor store you are doing what's right. Ignoring someones skin colour is doing what's right. I don't lead (or even follow) moral crusades so that's all you're going to get out of me. Aside from if someone I'm hanging out with gets all racist on my ass I'll tear them to shreds. That's not a token gesture, btw, I attack any form of stupidity on sight. It's just the way I'm wired. Making idiots feel stupid is something I can rarely resist.

Nobody is asking any more or any less of you.

When someone says to you "I'm basically a decent human being and not a shitheel!", what's their point?

Hell, from now on I think that's how I'll respond.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Am I doing a good thing by not kicking my dog or robbing a liquor store right now?

Am I reducing crime by not committing a crime?

"I could be adding to the problem, but I'm not; therefore I am reducing the problem" is bad math.

Fair enough on the math thing I concede that point but with the dog and the liquor store you are doing what's right. Ignoring someones skin colour is doing what's right. I don't lead (or even follow) moral crusades so that's all you're going to get out of me. Aside from if someone I'm hanging out with gets all racist on my ass I'll tear them to shreds. That's not a token gesture, btw, I attack any form of stupidity on sight. It's just the way I'm wired. Making idiots feel stupid is something I can rarely resist.

Nobody is asking any more or any less of you.

When someone says to you "I'm basically a decent human being and not a shitheel!", what's their point?

Hell, from now on I think that's how I'll respond.

For some reason it's a kneejerk reaction when racism or any other "ism" comes up. I need whoever to understand they aint talking about me. It aint guilt but it's something similar, something defensive. Probably something to do with why this is an uncomfortable topic. Well done Nigel - once again you have me rooting around in my head looking for answers. I'll let you know if I dig up anything interesting.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Am I doing a good thing by not kicking my dog or robbing a liquor store right now?

Am I reducing crime by not committing a crime?

"I could be adding to the problem, but I'm not; therefore I am reducing the problem" is bad math.

Fair enough on the math thing I concede that point but with the dog and the liquor store you are doing what's right. Ignoring someones skin colour is doing what's right. I don't lead (or even follow) moral crusades so that's all you're going to get out of me. Aside from if someone I'm hanging out with gets all racist on my ass I'll tear them to shreds. That's not a token gesture, btw, I attack any form of stupidity on sight. It's just the way I'm wired. Making idiots feel stupid is something I can rarely resist.

Nobody is asking any more or any less of you.

When someone says to you "I'm basically a decent human being and not a shitheel!", what's their point?

Hell, from now on I think that's how I'll respond.

For some reason it's a kneejerk reaction when racism or any other "ism" comes up. I need whoever to understand they aint talking about me. It aint guilt but it's something similar, something defensive. Probably something to do with why this is an uncomfortable topic. Well done Nigel - once again you have me rooting around in my head looking for answers. I'll let you know if I dig up anything interesting.

Thanks!

[navkat]

I'm such a tool ITT.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'm such a tool ITT.

No biggie. The important thing (IMO) is that you were able to move past the defensiveness and see another perspective. That's pretty much the most bipedal thing anyone can do.

Hey P3nt, what the fuck is your sig from? 

[Phox]

@Phox

Okay, that clears some things up for me. Let me repeat back to you what I received:
What you're saying is black people are in a position right now (REGARDLESS OF HOW THEY GOT THERE) of feeling nervous and defensive about how they "come off" to whites and as a result, they find themselves behaving in apologetic ways and being burdened with the non-liberty of excercising caution and self-censorship (cognitive slavery) which is painful.

The second message I received as logically implied is:
Because of this cognitive hardship (which is an injustice, REGARDLESS OF HOW IT GOT THERE OR WHOSE FAULT IT IS OR ISN'T ), we, as the members of the other, diametrically facing side of this equation, have the responsibility out of politeness, consideration and basic, human decency to share in some of this burden by being mindful not to unnecessarily trigger or exacerbate it NOT MUCH DIFFERENTLY THAN YOU WOULD AVOID TALKING ABOUT DEATH AT THANKSGIVING DINNER WHEN ONE OF YOUR GUESTS JUST LOST HIS WIFE. Have a hand in not putting people in any awkward situations that can be avoided?


Okay. That being the case, I can see how that sounds equitable and righteous.

There is also a rebelious girl inside, screaming "Fuck no! The answer to discomfort and self-censorship is NOT more self-censorship! The point is to find a way to create a situation where ice-cream-guy and his friend KNOW and are AWARE of the fact that that apology was unnecessary (because it was with you). Ice-cream dudes should know he's got friends and we should be getting past this now, not perpetuating it on the other side!"

But I do realize how 1. Unrealistic and 2. Arrogant that sounds. I don't mean to be...but technically, the rebelious girl is right. Nobody should have to do that mental slavery shit.

But that's like telling me to "Grow up and stop having daddy issues," right? 30 years in the Skinner Box and still pulling that lever when the buzzer goes off.

Have I got the right motorcycle firmly nestled in my crotch now?

For what's it worth, I think that you got the point here. And I think it should be pretty clear by now that Nigel's point with this thread is
1. Saying that you "do not see race" is an arrogant, privileged position. (i.e. you have the luxury of not seeing race).
2. Actually accepting people without consideration for race is not a bad thing, and "effectively not seeing race" is an acceptable state to be in.
3. The fact that you accept people regardless of race, while an awesome and correct thing to do, does not in and of itself do anything to decrease racism, nor does it matter to the random black person in the street. They are not aware that being themselves is good enough for you, because it is not good enough for everyone.
(Beaten death, but bears repeating).

That said, I don't really think that it's self-censorship to be aware of what you're doing in a given situation and try to take other people's perceptions into account. It's common courtesy in other situations to be mindful of your actions, why should this be different?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

@Phox

Okay, that clears some things up for me. Let me repeat back to you what I received:
What you're saying is black people are in a position right now (REGARDLESS OF HOW THEY GOT THERE) of feeling nervous and defensive about how they "come off" to whites and as a result, they find themselves behaving in apologetic ways and being burdened with the non-liberty of excercising caution and self-censorship (cognitive slavery) which is painful.

The second message I received as logically implied is:
Because of this cognitive hardship (which is an injustice, REGARDLESS OF HOW IT GOT THERE OR WHOSE FAULT IT IS OR ISN'T ), we, as the members of the other, diametrically facing side of this equation, have the responsibility out of politeness, consideration and basic, human decency to share in some of this burden by being mindful not to unnecessarily trigger or exacerbate it NOT MUCH DIFFERENTLY THAN YOU WOULD AVOID TALKING ABOUT DEATH AT THANKSGIVING DINNER WHEN ONE OF YOUR GUESTS JUST LOST HIS WIFE. Have a hand in not putting people in any awkward situations that can be avoided?


Okay. That being the case, I can see how that sounds equitable and righteous.

There is also a rebelious girl inside, screaming "Fuck no! The answer to discomfort and self-censorship is NOT more self-censorship! The point is to find a way to create a situation where ice-cream-guy and his friend KNOW and are AWARE of the fact that that apology was unnecessary (because it was with you). Ice-cream dudes should know he's got friends and we should be getting past this now, not perpetuating it on the other side!"

But I do realize how 1. Unrealistic and 2. Arrogant that sounds. I don't mean to be...but technically, the rebelious girl is right. Nobody should have to do that mental slavery shit.

But that's like telling me to "Grow up and stop having daddy issues," right? 30 years in the Skinner Box and still pulling that lever when the buzzer goes off.

Have I got the right motorcycle firmly nestled in my crotch now?

For what's it worth, I think that you got the point here. And I think it should be pretty clear by now that Nigel's point with this thread is
1. Saying that you "do not see race" is an arrogant, privileged position. (i.e. you have the luxury of not seeing race).
2. Actually accepting people without consideration for race is not a bad thing, and "effectively not seeing race" is an acceptable state to be in.
3. The fact that you accept people regardless of race, while an awesome and correct thing to do, does not in and of itself do anything to decrease racism, nor does it matter to the random black person in the street. They are not aware that being themselves is good enough for you, because it is not good enough for everyone.
(Beaten death, but bears repeating).

That said, I don't really think that it's self-censorship to be aware of what you're doing in a given situation and try to take other people's perceptions into account. It's common courtesy in other situations to be mindful of your actions, why should this be different?

That's a good summation, Phox.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I also wanted to add (not that I think anyone is thinking this) that I didn't come to this thread from the position of a high horse. Race is almost impossibly hard to talk about with many white folks, especially online, because it's... well, difficult. There's a lot of auto-response that comes into play. But as a mixed-race person (1/8 black, 3/8 Native, 1/2 Orkadian) race has always been an issue in my life, literally as far back as I remember. Nowadays being mixed is really well accepted, but there was still huge stigma when I was a kid and it was difficult to grow up in a black neighborhood and be rejected by other black kids because I was too white. And too black to be a proper indian, and... just not white. At all. Because you can be black if you're half black and Native if you're half indian, but for reasons that I first puzzled over in kindergarten, you can't be white if you're half white. Or 3/4 white. So it's always been a presence in my life... and I am really happy and grateful that it's less of a big deal now than it was 30 years ago. That my mixed kids are in school with other mixed kids. Because you can bet anything that my "functionally white" son is crucially aware of race and probably feels a little awkward about being blonde and blue-eyed (I have funny stories about the other moms at his school assuming I was his nanny) when his mom and sister are clearly some kind of not-white, and we're gratefully past the days of hushed whispers that Grandma had a nigger in the closet.

Plus, it's good that he's aware because he might blacken up when he gets older, like my brother did.

I really wanted to share that piece of my existence with a community that I have grown to respect tremendously, and I thought you guys would probably not let me down. And you didn't. Thanks!

[P3nT4gR4m]

I'm such a tool ITT.

No biggie. The important thing (IMO) is that you were able to move past the defensiveness and see another perspective. That's pretty much the most bipedal thing anyone can do.

Hey P3nt, what the fuck is your sig from? 

It was that spanish troll guy that was here a couple of weeks back. Started a thread about how the world would be a better place if all women became hookers or something like that.

[Phox]

I'm such a tool ITT.

No biggie. The important thing (IMO) is that you were able to move past the defensiveness and see another perspective. That's pretty much the most bipedal thing anyone can do.

Hey P3nt, what the fuck is your sig from? 

It was that spanish troll guy that was here a couple of weeks back. Started a thread about how the world would be a better place if all women became hookers or something like that.

Kinda wish that dude would come back for teh lulz. 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'm such a tool ITT.

No biggie. The important thing (IMO) is that you were able to move past the defensiveness and see another perspective. That's pretty much the most bipedal thing anyone can do.

Hey P3nt, what the fuck is your sig from? 

It was that spanish troll guy that was here a couple of weeks back. Started a thread about how the world would be a better place if all women became hookers or something like that.

Oh yeah, that guy. 

[LMNO]

Hey Nigel, I wanted to thank you.  I noticed this morning during my commute (I live in a neighboorhood that has I high density of Dominican/Haitian/Latino/Otherwise Black/Certainly Not White families), that I was conscious of myself and how I was thinking, acting, and behaving, in a good way, not in an "autopilot" way.  Which then, as I got off the train in the very White financial block when my job is, I continued to be conscious and aware of who the people around me are, and how I behave and act.  Then I recalled LessWrong's Fundamental Attribution Error, which basically says that humans tend to make too big a deal between someone's immediate behaviors and their inner personalities.  And that started a cascade of increased self-awareness.

So yeah, thanks.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Aw!  You're welcome, and thank you!

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

http://yoisthisracist.com

I found this hella funny blog by a "non -white" person. I thought it was appropriate.

Also the comments about Arizona were funny. Basically people tweet or ask "is this racist?" style questions and the guy (I think he's male) answers.

Using humour to counter raacism is a good thing, imho.