On Freedom of Speech, Rush and the Turkish viewpoint

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Perhaps it has nothing to do with freedom- it was an observation that popped into my head which is no longer relevant as pointed out.

[East Coast Hustle]

I'm ok with people owning weapons, but I don't really see any purpose to owning an Uzi.

They're fun.

Firing fully automatic weapons is a fucking blast. The bigger it is, more fucking awesome it is.

Also, food for thought: Twid, why own a guitar?

Apples and oranges. I don't have the soloing skills to kill a man where he stands with one yet. 

Not the point. You are not a full time musician. Your livelihood does not rely on an instrument. It is an extraneous frippery. You own it because you like making music. Or because it is fun. Yes?
Which is my point. You don't need to prove a reason why you should have a guitar, despite it not being guaranteed in our Constitution. Why then should we have to provide a reason to own a weapon, especially considering such a right IS guaranteed by the Constitution.

Well, it kinda is the point. Guns are lethal weapons. I'd like to see less shootings in the paper.

Why?

No, seriously. Are the shooting victims people you care about? Do you feel there are not enough people in the world? Do you think that if guns magically ceased to exist those same people wouldn't kill each other with knives or sticks or their bare hands?

[Doktor Howl]

Not to get too bogged down in this, but it certainly is considered another 'black mark' against their human rights record on this side of the pond.

That's where I have to disagree with your side of the pond.  All societies have some requirements of their citizens.  Here, there are only three:

1.  Sit on a jury when required.
2.  Answer the draft, if called.
3.  Pay taxes as levied.

I do not find these particularly onerous.  They are all necessities, IMO, even if not always in use.

However, I will say that being a good citizen only pays off if you live in a good society.  Mohammed Ali told the draft board to piss up a rope, and was right to do so, at that time and in that place.  Despite my arguments above, I consider him a hero for making a correct moral judgement, showing up, and telling them where they could stick it.

I do not have the same respect for people that ran to Canada.  I don't hate them or despise them, but they lack the moral authority gained by standing up and spitting in the man's eye in a case like Vietnam.

[Doktor Howl]

In defence of the UK laws, I will point out that they have to be considered threatening statements, and that in particular exemptions are made for expressions of opinion and mockery.

I was unaware of that.  I was under the impression that they were similar in nature to Canada, in which the speech itself can be criminal, even without implied threat.

This is, however, allowed by Canada's charter of rights.  It's how they run their country...And until the country I consider home gets its shit in one bag, I'm not about to call my relatives in Canada and tell them they're all fucked up.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Its has nothing to do whether or not there are too many people in the world. I do not believe people have the right to deprive another of their life unless it is to preserve their own. But youre right making guns go away wont prevent people from killing others. But i dont see how overpopulation should make me ok with murder. And yes i care if someone dies even if i dont know them.

[East Coast Hustle]

I'm ok with people owning weapons, but I don't really see any purpose to owning an Uzi.

They're fun.

Firing fully automatic weapons is a fucking blast. The bigger it is, more fucking awesome it is.

Also, food for thought: Twid, why own a guitar?

Apples and oranges. I don't have the soloing skills to kill a man where he stands with one yet. 

Not the point. You are not a full time musician. Your livelihood does not rely on an instrument. It is an extraneous frippery. You own it because you like making music. Or because it is fun. Yes?
Which is my point. You don't need to prove a reason why you should have a guitar, despite it not being guaranteed in our Constitution. Why then should we have to provide a reason to own a weapon, especially considering such a right IS guaranteed by the Constitution.

Well, it kinda is the point. Guns are lethal weapons. I'd like to see less shootings in the paper.

More guns would mean less shootings. Maybe. Besides most shootings are done with illegal weapons. Yes?

although i would love to support it, the first claim is a 'maybe' at best.  too many factors involved to put much value on it.

as to the second claim, how do you mean 'illegal weapon' and what are you basing this on?

My point is most gang related shootings are done with illegally acquired fully automatic weapons. It's that trite saying, "Out law guns and only outlaws have guns." And aren't most shootings gang related?
And like Dok said, freedom isn't safe, wear a hat.

No they aren't. Most gangsters can't afford full-auto stuff. Most gang-related shootings are done with semi-auto handguns.

And no, most shootings aren't gang-related either. You guys watch too many movies.

[Doktor Howl]

I'm ok with people owning weapons, but I don't really see any purpose to owning an Uzi.

They're fun.

Firing fully automatic weapons is a fucking blast. The bigger it is, more fucking awesome it is.

Also, food for thought: Twid, why own a guitar?

Apples and oranges. I don't have the soloing skills to kill a man where he stands with one yet. 

Not the point. You are not a full time musician. Your livelihood does not rely on an instrument. It is an extraneous frippery. You own it because you like making music. Or because it is fun. Yes?
Which is my point. You don't need to prove a reason why you should have a guitar, despite it not being guaranteed in our Constitution. Why then should we have to provide a reason to own a weapon, especially considering such a right IS guaranteed by the Constitution.

Well, it kinda is the point. Guns are lethal weapons. I'd like to see less shootings in the paper.

More guns would mean less shootings. Maybe. Besides most shootings are done with illegal weapons. Yes?

although i would love to support it, the first claim is a 'maybe' at best.  too many factors involved to put much value on it.

as to the second claim, how do you mean 'illegal weapon' and what are you basing this on?

My point is most gang related shootings are done with illegally acquired fully automatic weapons. It's that trite saying, "Out law guns and only outlaws have guns." And aren't most shootings gang related?
And like Dok said, freedom isn't safe, wear a hat.

No they aren't. Most gangsters can't afford full-auto stuff. Most gang-related shootings are done with semi-auto handguns.

And no, most shootings aren't gang-related either. You guys watch too many movies.

The gangs in Tucson are too business-oriented for that.  Shootings here tend to fall under "I wasn't wearing a hat at noon and so Jesus told me to kill that guy", or "You dented my bumper, you fucking son of a bitch", but MOSTLY "Oops.  I should have demanded your wallet BEFORE shooting".

[East Coast Hustle]

Its has nothing to do whether or not there are too many people in the world. I do not believe people have the right to deprive another of their life unless it is to preserve their own. But youre right making guns go away wont prevent people from killing others. But i dont see how overpopulation should make me ok with murder. And yes i care if someone dies even if i dont know them.

1) So don't murder anyone.

2) For fuck's sake, WHY? People die every day.

[Cain]

In defence of the UK laws, I will point out that they have to be considered threatening statements, and that in particular exemptions are made for expressions of opinion and mockery.

I was unaware of that.  I was under the impression that they were similar in nature to Canada, in which the speech itself can be criminal, even without implied threat.

This is, however, allowed by Canada's charter of rights.  It's how they run their country...And until the country I consider home gets its shit in one bag, I'm not about to call my relatives in Canada and tell them they're all fucked up.

It's not that widely known over here either, to be honest.

But the EDL can still march up and down a street, calling Islam a "religion of evil" if they wish, for example.  Hell, they did it less than a month ago.

[Doktor Howl]

In defence of the UK laws, I will point out that they have to be considered threatening statements, and that in particular exemptions are made for expressions of opinion and mockery.

I was unaware of that.  I was under the impression that they were similar in nature to Canada, in which the speech itself can be criminal, even without implied threat.

This is, however, allowed by Canada's charter of rights.  It's how they run their country...And until the country I consider home gets its shit in one bag, I'm not about to call my relatives in Canada and tell them they're all fucked up.

It's not that widely known over here either, to be honest.

But the EDL can still march up and down a street, calling Islam a "religion of evil" if they wish, for example.  Hell, they did it less than a month ago.

Canada is a little torn on that.  I was just doing some reading, and the cases tried in the past have either been appealed or are in appeal, based on the rather loose writing of the Charter of Rights.

So their status in this respect is up in the air until their courts sort it out.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I have an overactive nice guy gland at times.

[Elder Iptuous]

I'm ok with people owning weapons, but I don't really see any purpose to owning an Uzi.

They're fun.

Firing fully automatic weapons is a fucking blast. The bigger it is, more fucking awesome it is.

Also, food for thought: Twid, why own a guitar?

Apples and oranges. I don't have the soloing skills to kill a man where he stands with one yet. 

Not the point. You are not a full time musician. Your livelihood does not rely on an instrument. It is an extraneous frippery. You own it because you like making music. Or because it is fun. Yes?
Which is my point. You don't need to prove a reason why you should have a guitar, despite it not being guaranteed in our Constitution. Why then should we have to provide a reason to own a weapon, especially considering such a right IS guaranteed by the Constitution.

Well, it kinda is the point. Guns are lethal weapons. I'd like to see less shootings in the paper.

Why?

No, seriously. Are the shooting victims people you care about? Do you feel there are not enough people in the world? Do you think that if guns magically ceased to exist those same people wouldn't kill each other with knives or sticks or their bare hands?

actually, it could see it being the case.  shooting someone is relatively clean and easy in a sense.  stabbing someone seems like it would take more fortitude and certain intent.  i don't really have anything to base this on, but it wouldn't seem entirely implausible to me...  how often does a criminal unintentionally shoot a victim due to nervousness, as opposed to accidentally stabbing them, incident for incident?  who knows...
of course, it's a moot point, as it would require some serious magic for guns to up and disappear.  failing that, i want to have whatever those antagonistic to me might have, or better.

[Doktor Howl]

I'm ok with people owning weapons, but I don't really see any purpose to owning an Uzi.

They're fun.

Firing fully automatic weapons is a fucking blast. The bigger it is, more fucking awesome it is.

Also, food for thought: Twid, why own a guitar?

Apples and oranges. I don't have the soloing skills to kill a man where he stands with one yet. 

Not the point. You are not a full time musician. Your livelihood does not rely on an instrument. It is an extraneous frippery. You own it because you like making music. Or because it is fun. Yes?
Which is my point. You don't need to prove a reason why you should have a guitar, despite it not being guaranteed in our Constitution. Why then should we have to provide a reason to own a weapon, especially considering such a right IS guaranteed by the Constitution.

Well, it kinda is the point. Guns are lethal weapons. I'd like to see less shootings in the paper.

Why?

No, seriously. Are the shooting victims people you care about? Do you feel there are not enough people in the world? Do you think that if guns magically ceased to exist those same people wouldn't kill each other with knives or sticks or their bare hands?

actually, it could see it being the case.  shooting someone is relatively clean and easy in a sense.  stabbing someone seems like it would take more fortitude and certain intent. 

In my rather limited experience, most people mad enough to shoot are mad enough to kill someone with a tire iron...And those sociopathic enough to do it in cold blood aren't too concerned about the methods, either.

[Elder Iptuous]

oh, yea.  the impassioned killer, i can see that.

i was just thinking about the mugger.  i would guess they probably aren't motivated by passion.  as i said, i don't really have any evidence, but i've heard the argument dismissed before, and it doesn't seem entirely implausible to me.  (but the prerequisite does, so it doesn't really matter)

[Don Coyote]

Thanks ECH.