Egalitarianism

[East Coast Hustle]

I want to point out how retarded this thread is, but somebody will probably point out that it's offensive to the mentally disabled to do so.

Seriously, though, this whole round of butthurt via getting hung up on words and terms is pretty stupid and useless. If anybody thinks that getting rid of the word "cunt" as a pejorative is an important step in advancing feminism, I suggest they study the corollary.

Hardly anybody uses the word "nigger" (note that I am making a distinction between "nigger" and "nigga" to avoid the whole idiotic 'BUT BLACK PEOPLE USE IT ALL THE TIME' line that will inevitably get trotted out and has no bearing on the context of this discussion), and yet, racism....it's still alive and well and incredibly insidious and pervasive in our society, no?

See, the thing is, changing the language won't un-create assholes but it will alienate people (like me) who would otherwise be allies to your cause but find that whole idea both repugnant and ridiculous. So to me, it makes more sense to focus on changing or removing the assholes.

For my own part, the whole point of the discussion about words, what they mean, and how they came to be that way wasn't about "don't use those words" but about THINKING about how and why our society chooses pejoratives. Because the more you understand about a system, the better you can hack it. Am I wrong?

No, I would absolutely agree with that. And I do understand what people are saying in regards to how language is shaped and in turn shapes our thoughts, but it seemed to degenerate into a whole bunch of "THIS IS HOW YOU NEED TO ACT AND TALK AND IF YOU DON'T AGREE AND GO ALONG YOU'RE PROBABLY SCUM AND DEFINITELY PART OF THE PROBLEM" and I just can't get down with that. And I think that, like it or not, there is a huge difference between the word "cunt" (or "pussy") as commonly used in slang and words like "nigger" and "fag" (which, to answer Garbo's question in another thread, I don't throw around as slang or obscenities), primarily in that the former have been part of the lexicon for so long that they've taken on meanings and contexts which, in my experience (and I know anecdotal != evidence) are generally not intended as being anti-woman, though I'm not disputing the original sentiment behind them. There is no context in which "nigger" is anything other than a racial slur.

I sure as fuck never said any of that, ECH. I specified like a million times that I want people to think about the words they use and that's it. If someone keeps using pussy and cunt as pejoratives (because I think they are), whatever. Your rating on the douche-o-meter is going to be higher and I'm gonna side eye the fuck out of you when you say that shit but I'm not cool with making people change the words they use. I don't think you can and trying is only going to result in resentment that ASKING someone to think about their words is less likely to generate.
(although, ahaha, as this thread has proven, it's certainly going to generate a lot of resentment in some quarters anyway)

I'm not getting into the language debate again, as I have already extensively stated my opinion.

Well, im not about to dig thru 50 pages of drama and carefully citate people to make a point that will likely get ignored or provoke more anger, when im barely keeping up with reading it.

My reaction mostly to all of this is dissapointment and anger that nothing can be discussed without people jumping at each other's throats because someone else said something offensive.

And for the record, i kind of see both sides points and think they are valid, but god, both sides are acting so cutthroat and dismissive that its impossible to uphold civility.

I have read most of it and I agree with this. There's a lot of butthurt all around. Which is funny because A) SRSLY YOU GUISE? and B) Everyone using the term "butthurt" in context with a lot of what has been said is just fucking lolleriffic.

I was kind of upset, but now it's just sort of amusing. Where do you think we are headed with this? Has no one noticed the irony of how this discussion has broken down? Why do you suppose that is?

Anyhow, I didn't get overly involved because it looked to be one of the Verboten Subjects in the making, just cut along new lines. Now I have little doubt. Which is a shame because this was one of the most interesting stuff Ive read here and I've read a lot.

Mhm. If this turns into a drugs-style topic, I'm gonna be sad. There are some very fine minds here, whose opinions I'm interested in. But if they can't put the monkey in the backseat instead of letting the fucker drive the car, then there's no point, because there's only going to be screeching and/or talking to people who are already on the same page I am.

I gotta say, if all it takes is a couple of common and widely-used expletives for someone to rate me higher on their douche-o-meter, odds are I'm going to return the favor in spades.

[Juana]

If it's already a discussion that has been had, then yes, I will rate you slightly higher on the douche-o-meter (not enough for me to stop talking you but enough to like you slightly less if you keep doing it in my presence when I have expressed my opinion on the matter). And I give precisely zero fucks as to whether or not you think I'm a douche bag, ECH. You're a cool enough guy, but I don't really care about your opinion of me.

[Juana]

Being told that "the world is full of assholes, deal with it" is not part of my Discordia.  All me, Nigel and Garbo have been saying is that "this shit sucks, lets talk about it and become more aware of it.".  You cannot change a damned thing by not thinking about something and being dismissive or butthurt. My Discordia hates apathy with the power of 1000 suns going supernova.

Whether you deal with it or not, the world is still full of assholes.

Regardless of how much you talk about it or how aware of it you are, the world is still full of assholes

Speaking personally, I'm hyper aware of the assholes thing already, I'm bored talking about it but, if and when you're done with the talking and the awareness thing, come and have a chat about how to deal with the asshole problem. Oh wait, that's right, you're not interested in dealing, just talking and being aware, right?

Personally I'm more interested in pissing off assholes using the power of my middle finger than arguing over taxonomy but it's a free country. Have your burger however you want it.

If these discussions bore you, stay the fuck of the thread. Problem solved.

[Juana]

In my experience none of these things ever make it past the planning stage. Something about being too busy arguing about what the problem is, who's to blame and how best to go about solving it. These arguments go round in circles, on earth just as it is in internets and nothing changes and, lo and behold, the world is still full of assholes.

So I'm sorry but no, I'm not interested in dialogue and establishing just exactly what flavour of indignant butthurt everyone is operating with and how diddums can't hold up their middle finger cos they hurted it.

If hacking your own head is difficult, hacking a planet full of heads that don't want to be hacked is the last word in futility.

A lot of organizations don't make it beyond the planning stages. Others do. This is no reason not to try.

[East Coast Hustle]

If it's already a discussion that has been had, then yes, I will rate you slightly higher on the douche-o-meter (not enough for me to stop talking you but enough to like you slightly less if you keep doing it in my presence when I have expressed my opinion on the matter). And I give precisely zero fucks as to whether or not you think I'm a douche bag, ECH. You're a cool enough guy, but I don't really care about your opinion of me.

Sounds like we're on the same page. I'm perfectly happy to agree to disagree on this subject, though your opinion of the words being discussed does nothing to lessen my opinion of you. If I liked someone a little less every time I found one of their opinions to be silly or mildly objectionable I wouldn't have anyone to talk to after about a week.

[East Coast Hustle]

Though I feel like I didn't clearly articulate the distinction between swearing in the course of casual conversation and swearing as a Holy Sacrament, usually from rage, pain, or a combination of the two. If we're hanging out at the bar having a conversation and I use the word "cunt" in conversation and you tell me that you find the word offensive and would I please not continue to use it in front of you, I'll agree and do my damndest, and apologize to you if it slips out again. I'm not a discourteous person most of the time. But if I hit my thumb with a hammer and let out a high-volume "CUNTKNOCKING MOTHERFUCKING COCKBURGLER!" immediately afterward, I would probably tell anyone who scolded me for it to get bent, even my own mother.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

Though I feel like I didn't clearly articulate the distinction between swearing in the course of casual conversation and swearing as a Holy Sacrament, usually from rage, pain, or a combination of the two. If we're hanging out at the bar having a conversation and I use the word "cunt" in conversation and you tell me that you find the word offensive and would I please not continue to use it in front of you, I'll agree and do my damndest, and apologize to you if it slips out again. I'm not a discourteous person most of the time. But if I hit my thumb with a hammer and let out a high-volume "CUNTKNOCKING MOTHERFUCKING COCKBURGLER!" immediately afterward, I would probably tell anyone who scolded me for it to get bent, even my own mother.

This post seems entirely reasonable.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

For me it is more individual behavior than social critique or even political statement. I will not conduct myself in a way that gives consideration to stereotypes or prejudice, and I won't tolerate those around me doing that either. Beyond that, I try to spread that position. It is enough work examining myself and my own actions and eliminating those behaviors.

Yes, but without critiquing society, how are you supposed to change some of the more subtle parts of your behavior or call out people who do those self-same things? I have no idea whether or not the pussy/cunt discussion changed your opinion of the words, but would you have thought of it if someone else hadn't brought it up?

That has merely illustrated - once again, because I'm a slow learner - that the moment a Discordian allows ANYTHING to offend him/her, that Discordian has allowed society (even inside of Discordianism) to jam a steering wheel up his/her ass, to be driven hither and yon.

Personally, I've decided to not use a few words.  But I also learned about the steering wheel again, and I saw first hand who had one up their colon, and who didn't.  I did.  I don't now.

So I see precisely no value in this.

I disagree with this, and it sounds like butthurt.

But it is, alternately, possible that I am wrong, and that it is time for Discordianism and I to part ways because it doesn't fit me or my objectives anymore.

THIS.  Things have got pretty heated recently here, and the range from passive aggressive snarking to butthurt and repeating and rephrasing myself until I'm blue in the fucking face is tiring and ultimately boring, as I can get exactly the same responses when I point out in IRL that rape jokes that mock survivors of sexual assault can trigger PTSD in those people and that I don't find that funny. The cries of "your censoring meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!" from people who would recoil in horror at a openly hostile racist joke to "I was only joking, god your humourless!" weak assed weaksauce excuses for not actually thinking about the shit that comes out of your mouth and the effect or impressions it will leave on another.  This was not the response I expected from PeeDee.

Being told that "the world is full of assholes, deal with it" is not part of my Discordia.  All me, Nigel and Garbo have been saying is that "this shit sucks, lets talk about it and become more aware of it.".  You cannot change a damned thing by not thinking about something and being dismissive or butthurt. My Discordia hates apathy with the power of 1000 suns going supernova.

If we can't discuss things without kneejerking and not attempt at reaching an understanding of the other person's point then maybe we're all fucking deluding ourselves about being the bipedal superior mutants.

and sadly, that is not My Discordia.

Yes. I feel pretty hopeless at this point. No matter what I write, it gets glossed over or ignored and it keeps coming back to the same bullshit privilege and entitlement, and the men who DO get what we're saying don't seem very willing to speak up, and the whole situation, being that this is the response from some of the most intelligent. forward-thinking, and enlightened men I know, makes me doubtful that gender equality will ever be possible. It makes me feel sad and tired, and wonder if this is perhaps just not the place for me. It's one thing when I toughen up and take it like a man, but it certainly turns into something else when I start talking about being a woman and the struggle for egalitarianism.

I'm sorry you feel like giving up.

When arguments get to an impasse like this, I still see it as an opportunity to reformulate my approach, to give the opposing arguments another examination for something that I missed or misunderstood, and to develop even a slightly more nuanced understanding of the people opposing me.

It's still frustrating as hell and I get the urge to just say "fuck it, I don't give a shit." But I know that's just a maladaptive coping mechanism. To me, it's a sign I need to take a step away from the situation and recoup, but I don't let that fire in my belly stop burning. I can't pretend that the things I deeply care about do not matter to me without descending into dysfunction.

For me, these stalemates are a part of the process. I think they contain important information about myself, my detractors, and the way forward.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Though I feel like I didn't clearly articulate the distinction between swearing in the course of casual conversation and swearing as a Holy Sacrament, usually from rage, pain, or a combination of the two. If we're hanging out at the bar having a conversation and I use the word "cunt" in conversation and you tell me that you find the word offensive and would I please not continue to use it in front of you, I'll agree and do my damndest, and apologize to you if it slips out again. I'm not a discourteous person most of the time. But if I hit my thumb with a hammer and let out a high-volume "CUNTKNOCKING MOTHERFUCKING COCKBURGLER!" immediately afterward, I would probably tell anyone who scolded me for it to get bent, even my own mother.

I say all kinds of heinously offensive things, especially when I'm in my car by myself. And if I hurt myself somehow, either my reaction is unnaturally calm, or it's all shit, lost.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

For me it is more individual behavior than social critique or even political statement. I will not conduct myself in a way that gives consideration to stereotypes or prejudice, and I won't tolerate those around me doing that either. Beyond that, I try to spread that position. It is enough work examining myself and my own actions and eliminating those behaviors.

Yes, but without critiquing society, how are you supposed to change some of the more subtle parts of your behavior or call out people who do those self-same things? I have no idea whether or not the pussy/cunt discussion changed your opinion of the words, but would you have thought of it if someone else hadn't brought it up?

That has merely illustrated - once again, because I'm a slow learner - that the moment a Discordian allows ANYTHING to offend him/her, that Discordian has allowed society (even inside of Discordianism) to jam a steering wheel up his/her ass, to be driven hither and yon.

Personally, I've decided to not use a few words.  But I also learned about the steering wheel again, and I saw first hand who had one up their colon, and who didn't.  I did.  I don't now.

So I see precisely no value in this.

I disagree with this, and it sounds like butthurt.

But it is, alternately, possible that I am wrong, and that it is time for Discordianism and I to part ways because it doesn't fit me or my objectives anymore.

THIS.  Things have got pretty heated recently here, and the range from passive aggressive snarking to butthurt and repeating and rephrasing myself until I'm blue in the fucking face is tiring and ultimately boring, as I can get exactly the same responses when I point out in IRL that rape jokes that mock survivors of sexual assault can trigger PTSD in those people and that I don't find that funny. The cries of "your censoring meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!" from people who would recoil in horror at a openly hostile racist joke to "I was only joking, god your humourless!" weak assed weaksauce excuses for not actually thinking about the shit that comes out of your mouth and the effect or impressions it will leave on another.  This was not the response I expected from PeeDee.

Being told that "the world is full of assholes, deal with it" is not part of my Discordia.  All me, Nigel and Garbo have been saying is that "this shit sucks, lets talk about it and become more aware of it.".  You cannot change a damned thing by not thinking about something and being dismissive or butthurt. My Discordia hates apathy with the power of 1000 suns going supernova.

If we can't discuss things without kneejerking and not attempt at reaching an understanding of the other person's point then maybe we're all fucking deluding ourselves about being the bipedal superior mutants.

and sadly, that is not My Discordia.

Yes. I feel pretty hopeless at this point. No matter what I write, it gets glossed over or ignored and it keeps coming back to the same bullshit privilege and entitlement, and the men who DO get what we're saying don't seem very willing to speak up, and the whole situation, being that this is the response from some of the most intelligent. forward-thinking, and enlightened men I know, makes me doubtful that gender equality will ever be possible. It makes me feel sad and tired, and wonder if this is perhaps just not the place for me. It's one thing when I toughen up and take it like a man, but it certainly turns into something else when I start talking about being a woman and the struggle for egalitarianism.

I'm sorry you feel like giving up.

When arguments get to an impasse like this, I still see it as an opportunity to reformulate my approach, to give the opposing arguments another examination for something that I missed or misunderstood, and to develop even a slightly more nuanced understanding of the people opposing me.

It's still frustrating as hell and I get the urge to just say "fuck it, I don't give a shit." But I know that's just a maladaptive coping mechanism. To me, it's a sign I need to take a step away from the situation and recoup, but I don't let that fire in my belly stop burning. I can't pretend that the things I deeply care about do not matter to me without descending into dysfunction.

For me, these stalemates are a part of the process. I think they contain important information about myself, my detractors, and the way forward.

All of your points are valid, and I'm glad you're pushing through. I'm just really tired and it might be a while before I'm not so tired.

[Juana]

Though I feel like I didn't clearly articulate the distinction between swearing in the course of casual conversation and swearing as a Holy Sacrament, usually from rage, pain, or a combination of the two. If we're hanging out at the bar having a conversation and I use the word "cunt" in conversation and you tell me that you find the word offensive and would I please not continue to use it in front of you, I'll agree and do my damndest, and apologize to you if it slips out again. I'm not a discourteous person most of the time. But if I hit my thumb with a hammer and let out a high-volume "CUNTKNOCKING MOTHERFUCKING COCKBURGLER!" immediately afterward, I would probably tell anyone who scolded me for it to get bent, even my own mother.

This post seems entirely reasonable.

I still don't like it, but I can understand, I suppose.

For me it is more individual behavior than social critique or even political statement. I will not conduct myself in a way that gives consideration to stereotypes or prejudice, and I won't tolerate those around me doing that either. Beyond that, I try to spread that position. It is enough work examining myself and my own actions and eliminating those behaviors.

Yes, but without critiquing society, how are you supposed to change some of the more subtle parts of your behavior or call out people who do those self-same things? I have no idea whether or not the pussy/cunt discussion changed your opinion of the words, but would you have thought of it if someone else hadn't brought it up?

That has merely illustrated - once again, because I'm a slow learner - that the moment a Discordian allows ANYTHING to offend him/her, that Discordian has allowed society (even inside of Discordianism) to jam a steering wheel up his/her ass, to be driven hither and yon.

Personally, I've decided to not use a few words.  But I also learned about the steering wheel again, and I saw first hand who had one up their colon, and who didn't.  I did.  I don't now.

So I see precisely no value in this.

I disagree with this, and it sounds like butthurt.

But it is, alternately, possible that I am wrong, and that it is time for Discordianism and I to part ways because it doesn't fit me or my objectives anymore.

THIS.  Things have got pretty heated recently here, and the range from passive aggressive snarking to butthurt and repeating and rephrasing myself until I'm blue in the fucking face is tiring and ultimately boring, as I can get exactly the same responses when I point out in IRL that rape jokes that mock survivors of sexual assault can trigger PTSD in those people and that I don't find that funny. The cries of "your censoring meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!" from people who would recoil in horror at a openly hostile racist joke to "I was only joking, god your humourless!" weak assed weaksauce excuses for not actually thinking about the shit that comes out of your mouth and the effect or impressions it will leave on another.  This was not the response I expected from PeeDee.

Being told that "the world is full of assholes, deal with it" is not part of my Discordia.  All me, Nigel and Garbo have been saying is that "this shit sucks, lets talk about it and become more aware of it.".  You cannot change a damned thing by not thinking about something and being dismissive or butthurt. My Discordia hates apathy with the power of 1000 suns going supernova.

If we can't discuss things without kneejerking and not attempt at reaching an understanding of the other person's point then maybe we're all fucking deluding ourselves about being the bipedal superior mutants.

and sadly, that is not My Discordia.

Yes. I feel pretty hopeless at this point. No matter what I write, it gets glossed over or ignored and it keeps coming back to the same bullshit privilege and entitlement, and the men who DO get what we're saying don't seem very willing to speak up, and the whole situation, being that this is the response from some of the most intelligent. forward-thinking, and enlightened men I know, makes me doubtful that gender equality will ever be possible. It makes me feel sad and tired, and wonder if this is perhaps just not the place for me. It's one thing when I toughen up and take it like a man, but it certainly turns into something else when I start talking about being a woman and the struggle for egalitarianism.

I'm sorry you feel like giving up.

When arguments get to an impasse like this, I still see it as an opportunity to reformulate my approach, to give the opposing arguments another examination for something that I missed or misunderstood, and to develop even a slightly more nuanced understanding of the people opposing me.

It's still frustrating as hell and I get the urge to just say "fuck it, I don't give a shit." But I know that's just a maladaptive coping mechanism. To me, it's a sign I need to take a step away from the situation and recoup, but I don't let that fire in my belly stop burning. I can't pretend that the things I deeply care about do not matter to me without descending into dysfunction.

For me, these stalemates are a part of the process. I think they contain important information about myself, my detractors, and the way forward.

I can't speak for Nige, but it's not you who is frustrating.

Reformulating your approach is awesome and people like you are a lot of fun to debate because you're not spagging up the thread with "LOOK AT ALL THE FUCKS I GIVE!" every two pages and .

[Signora Pæsior]

Being told that "the world is full of assholes, deal with it" is not part of my Discordia.  All me, Nigel and Garbo have been saying is that "this shit sucks, lets talk about it and become more aware of it.".  You cannot change a damned thing by not thinking about something and being dismissive or butthurt. My Discordia hates apathy with the power of 1000 suns going supernova.

Whether you deal with it or not, the world is still full of assholes.

Regardless of how much you talk about it or how aware of it you are, the world is still full of assholes

Speaking personally, I'm hyper aware of the assholes thing already, I'm bored talking about it but, if and when you're done with the talking and the awareness thing, come and have a chat about how to deal with the asshole problem. Oh wait, that's right, you're not interested in dealing, just talking and being aware, right?

Personally I'm more interested in pissing off assholes using the power of my middle finger than arguing over taxonomy but it's a free country. Have your burger however you want it.

If these discussions bore you, stay the fuck of the thread. Problem solved.

When you can get bored of these discussions because the very real consequences of the issues we're discussing don't affect your day-to-day life, that's a massive sign of your privilege IMO.

Although telling you this, P3nt, is rather like talking to a brick wall, I suspect.

[Juana]

For me it is more individual behavior than social critique or even political statement. I will not conduct myself in a way that gives consideration to stereotypes or prejudice, and I won't tolerate those around me doing that either. Beyond that, I try to spread that position. It is enough work examining myself and my own actions and eliminating those behaviors.

Yes, but without critiquing society, how are you supposed to change some of the more subtle parts of your behavior or call out people who do those self-same things? I have no idea whether or not the pussy/cunt discussion changed your opinion of the words, but would you have thought of it if someone else hadn't brought it up?

Yes but in critiquing society, can we not do so without eating the menu? Is it possible to see broad inequality, remedy those to the extent that each us as individuals can, without getting bogged down in the "appropriate" verbiage to use when interacting with Lesbian Midget Eskimo Albinos?

Uh, I tend to think calling the groups what they have said they want to be called is basic manners.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

I can't speak for Nige, but it's not you who is frustrating.

Reformulating your approach is awesome and people like you are a lot of fun to debate because you're not spagging up the thread with "LOOK AT ALL THE FUCKS I GIVE!" every two pages and .

[Roly Poly Oly-Garch]

Here is my sum total of something relevant that I have to add in an effort to keep these threads focused on what's really important (and I'm quoting a black woman here for what that's worth):

"If we're not going to win, I at least want to have fun while we're losing."