How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what women go through

[East Coast Hustle]

Oh, hey, sorry about the whole "legislating your vagina" thing, but at least you're a little less likely to get fucked with by cops at a party!

Really?

I'm going to start ignoring everyone who can't stop relying on anecdotes and other forms of non-evidence to make their point.

[East Coast Hustle]

"Hey, I know some slave owners who treat their negros very well!"

[East Coast Hustle]

"The chinese immigrants who are building the railroads have it good. They don't even have to worry about being drafted!"

[East Coast Hustle]

DOES EVERYBODY SEE WHERE THE FUCK I'M GOING WITH THIS?

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

"Poor people get free food and ALL their taxes back!"

[Placid Dingo]

Not if it is in a context where it alienates those who do not enjoy the privilege because of those other factors like class.  Especially if you want them to be allies or to just philosophically support your cause.

All men enjoy the privleges that come with being men even if their overall situation is still worse than most peoples because of other factors.

Tell that to the poor whit guy who can't even get into the door for a job interview.  Or the intern I talked about who got passed over by many other places while his female classmates were already starting internships.  Yeah, that "privilege" is really doing wonders for him.

I think you might be over-looking something. As a male he can, provided he doesn't have terrible health issues or a shit ton of felonies, can get into the military, which is a job in which there are no jobs that he cannot do because he is a male. In other words, he has the "privilege" of being allowed to be a infantryman and get blown up, shot at etc, or anything else.

Yes. RWHN, even if your life sucks you still have the privleges of your race, class and gender. Even if those privleges are pretty shit.

Sure, but I've been argung that class trumps gender and race, by definition, given that both genders and multiple races occupy multiple rungs of the social ladder.  I will concede that males have some nature-given biological advantages, but socially, it depends, like it does with everyone else, where you are in the pecking order.  That's what happens in the real world every day.

In this context a privilege is anything that works in your favour just for being who you are. Even if you're the dirt poor uneducated white guy in your argument you can still go into the local pub without having your arse pinched. Thats a make privilege. It's not ' not ' a privilege just because it doesn't make everything better and put them on top of other people.

That's not a privilege, that's notmbeing treated with disrespect, which is something, at a base level, all humans should expect and deserve.  People who do suffer mistreatment are being harassed and oppressed.


By the way, since I have been groped in a bar before by a member of the opposite gender, does this mean I'm no longer a privileged male?   

Privilege is being misunderstood as being something that one group has over another group. Thats not the case. So m maybe your guys class disadvantage means he can't get ahead despite male privleges. Thats not the same as ' no such thing as male privilege.'

I don't understand what you are trying to say here.  It isn't something one group has but the entire group of males does?  Maybe try that paragraph again?

Sorry that last one was wrong, I fixed it here.

If you get something positive out of just being in a certain group thats a privilege of that group.

Thats it.

I think you're the only one who isn't really following the concept at this point.

So you say class privilege is more important. Well maybe it is.

But just because I'm middle class doesn't mean I'm genderless. So I get all advantages and disadvantages of my class and my gender.

And those advantages have a fancy name; privleges!

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Oh, hey, sorry about the whole "legislating your vagina" thing, but at least you're a little less likely to get fucked with by cops at a party!

Really?

I'm going to start ignoring everyone who can't stop relying on anecdotes and other forms of non-evidence to make their point.

Point taken.

*backs out of thread slowly*

[Placid Dingo]

Not if it is in a context where it alienates those who do not enjoy the privilege because of those other factors like class.  Especially if you want them to be allies or to just philosophically support your cause.

All men enjoy the privleges that come with being men even if their overall situation is still worse than most peoples because of other factors.

Tell that to the poor whit guy who can't even get into the door for a job interview.  Or the intern I talked about who got passed over by many other places while his female classmates were already starting internships.  Yeah, that "privilege" is really doing wonders for him.

I think you might be over-looking something. As a male he can, provided he doesn't have terrible health issues or a shit ton of felonies, can get into the military, which is a job in which there are no jobs that he cannot do because he is a male. In other words, he has the "privilege" of being allowed to be a infantryman and get blown up, shot at etc, or anything else.

Wow, that's quite the "privilege" there.  So, the poor, young white guys who are able bodied at least can become armed meat puppets.  What about the rest of the poor white males who can't have that distinct "honor" due to being unhealthy, fat, "wrong", etc?


You're stretching.

Privilege isn't a euphemism for ' good'. It means you can do something because of what not who you are. This is a perfect example.

The argument seems to be "unless it leads to absolute domination over everyone else, it's not privilege."

Being able to join the crap men only clubs in Canberra is a privlege of being male, regardless of how unappealing that is.

[Freeky]

You used protege wrong, unless you are using a word I've never heard of.


I have completely lost the thread of this thread, and I'm just going to leave now.

I suspect that ECH's point is one of equal strength to a punch inna fase, though.

[Placid Dingo]

So what I'm getting from this:

Class seems to be the #1 differentiation between people in our society.

#2  If we have equal class, between a man and a woman, who both make 100k a year and live on the same street, the man has innate advantages.

#3 If we have equal class, between two men or two woman who both make 100k a year, race then again separates who is above and below.

Correct or am I missing something? I know this is a simplification but I'm trying to make sure I have the main point before moving on to the details of the innate abuse between male/female/race. I'm trying to sort it all out.
EDIT:
Adding #4 Between equal class M+W and M+M or W+W, M+W has an advantage.

I think it's not useful to have this kind of hierarchy. I dont think theres an all purpose model because so much depends on context.

Otherwise if theres a solid hierarchy an upper class israeli man would be the person with the most advantage at a Free Palestine rally. The context is important.

[Placid Dingo]

You used protege wrong, unless you are using a word I've never heard of.


I have completely lost the thread of this thread, and I'm just going to leave now.

I suspect that ECH's point is one of equal strength to a punch inna fase, though.

Typo.

[Verbal Mike]

First, what ECH said.

Eh, medical treatment =\= how you are treated by your fellow (wo)man.


I don't think it is a very good analogy at all.


And even if it was relevant, I would argue a person would enjoy not having their mouth full of pain while someone is sticking a drill in your face.

Note to self: never have a discussion of semantics with RWHN, because he both fails at basic logic (obviously not every positive thing is joy) and doesn't get how semantics works.

The way it works is that words can have different meanings, and that "arguing a person would enjoy not having their mouth full of pain" is, for a semantics discussion, eating the menu, since you're just talking about the situation being used to illustrate a difference in meaning without actually getting at the relevant part of the maning.

The point, I'd like to remind you, was that while "privilege" in this context entails receiving better (=relatively good) treatment, that doesn't mean the object of that treatment ends up having a good time. The word "enjoy" is a distraction.

Also, "privilege" in this kind of discussion has a different meaning than it does in everyday language. It seems like you're insisting that words only have the one meaning you choose, which is annoying and retarded.

One more thing.

A poor white male can physically intimidate an upper class women or assault her. After all, he's got nothing to lose and could get healthcare and food if he landed in prison.

Okay, you are talking biology here, no amount of feminism is ever going to change that men, on average, tend to have physical advantages over women.  So I will concede there is some biologically given "privilege" to som men.  Though, I don't think too many women are foing to be intimidated by the bean pole withinour gender.

So, I don't have a study to back this up on hand, but I heard the difference in physical strength is actually a side-effect of culture. Boys are expected to engage in a lot more activity that builds up strength, and guys in general are always tasked with carrying things for some reason. Obviously, not all men are strong (I'm really not, for one) and not all women are weak (my girlfriend really isn't). But from what I've heard, and this makes sense to me, our culture actually conditions us to build up different levels of strength based on gender. This makes sense to me because I understand biology as mainly defining the limits of our ability, i.e. potential, but what we actually do with our life (especially childhood) is what places us on some point or another within the range of our potential. The attached anecdote I heard (as an example, not as THE evidence) is that in rural areas where everyone is expected to take part in everything, i.e. women are expected to do heavy lifting as well, the women are just as strong as the men, though their upper-body muscles don't usually reach quite the same size.

And that might actually be an interesting example of privilege, if it's true. Male socialization equips males with, on average, more raw physical power. Doesn't mean we all get that advantage (I don't) but it's part of how we are perceived and treated by society (I still get asked to lift stuff, just because I'm a dude.) And in a narrow sense, it's a "privilege", because we have an advantage over another group, on average. This, I think, is more or less how this sense of "privilege" works, which is different from the everyday sense.

[AFK]

I think you are (perhaps willfully) not understanding what the concept of privilege means in the context of this discussion.

Well then someone clear up what I'm missing, I mean VERBL tried but his argument has some internal validity issues.  You can't say someone receives better treatment but isn't enjoying something.  That doesn't make any sense.

Well as soon as you stop being so intent on being hung up on a meaningless line, perhaps you can go read Corbeau et Renard's excellent post that defines it.

And for the record, yes you can. I can go to the dentist and have my teeth drilled with or without anesthetic. One is clearly better treatment, but it doesn't mean I enjoy having my teeth drilled.

My problem with CeR's post is that it still is too limited.  A white male born into generational poverty is not receiving any privilege as it is being described in this thread.  He is not enjoying any advantage due to his gender.  He is enjoying great disadvantage and poor treatment because of his class.  So in the case of lower class males, I do not agree with the idea that they are receiving privilege.

So you don't think a poor man has societally-conferred advantages over an equally poor woman? FWIW, I totally agree that class is the biggest conferrer of privilege in western society today. But that doesn't mean that in situations where class is more or less equal that men still don't have some privilege that women don't.

Yes, I've alread stipulated a couple of times now that within the same class level, there are going to be gender differences that are noticeable and prominent, however, outside of the class structure, aside from nature-conferred advantages, there is nothing there.

[AFK]

So what I'm getting from this:

Class seems to be the #1 differentiation between people in our society.

#2  If we have equal class, between a man and a woman, who both make 100k a year and live on the same street, the man has innate advantages.

#3 If we have equal class, between two men or two woman who both make 100k a year, race then again separates who is above and below.

Correct or am I missing something? I know this is a simplification but I'm trying to make sure I have the main point before moving on to the details of the innate abuse between male/female/race. I'm trying to sort it all out.
EDIT:
Adding #4 Between equal class M+W and M+M or W+W, M+W has an advantage.

I think the order of 2 and 3 will vary.  In my neck of the woods, a white woman is going to experience more privilege than any adult of color, male or female.  Especially if she's also a Christian.  Though, if the white woman was gay, then, the adults of color, if they are straight, will experience more privilege. 

[Verbal Mike]

Yes, I've alread stipulated a couple of times now that within the same class level, there are going to be gender differences that are noticeable and prominent, however, outside of the class structure, aside from nature-conferred advantages, there is nothing there.

What the fuck is "outside of class structure" even supposed to mean? I thought your argument, the whole time, has been that you can't ignore class structure.

I just- I can't-
fuck this shit, you're either trolling or terminally retarded.