UNLIMITED holist appreciation thread

[LMNO]

"I'm into social justice for trust fund douchebags.  You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty underground."
                                               \

[Dildo Argentino]

It's the ASSUMPTION of ignorance that offends. People often say "hey, are you aware of X?" but that's very, very different from "if you feel this way about X then how can you justify supporting Y?" which is pompous and presumptuous.

But come on, this is what I said:

If you haven't already done it, I suggest you also cast a cursory glance over how top-class gymnasts are made. And what happens to them.

Actually, I was being ignorant (about the US scandal). Over here, many people know about the hell those kids go through. Not much of a scandal, though.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It's the ASSUMPTION of ignorance that offends. People often say "hey, are you aware of X?" but that's very, very different from "if you feel this way about X then how can you justify supporting Y?" which is pompous and presumptuous.

But come on, this is what I said:

If you haven't already done it, I suggest you also cast a cursory glance over how top-class gymnasts are made. And what happens to them.

Actually, I was being ignorant (about the US scandal). Over here, many people know about the hell those kids go through. Not much of a scandal, though.

That's not the first time you've done something similar.

One thing I'm mystified by is why, rather than accepting that something is exploitative and then starting a new thread saying "OK guys, anybody want to talk about this other thing that is also exploitative", you bring up the other exploitative topic as if it in some way diminishes or refutes an existing topic.

Do you do this in person, as well? Does it go over well? It comes across as replying to someone by starting your sentence with "no but" instead of "yes and".

I don't know why I'm even talking to you, it's pointless.

[East Coast Hustle]

A factor that I find fascinating here is that for some reason you seem to keep assuming that people who are concerned about one element of social injustice are completely ignorant of other elements of social injustice. Why would you assume that?

There are literally billions and billions of elements to social injustice, anyone thinking they are aware of all of them is kidding themselves, right?

Now I mentioned the evil that is pro sports (not all, but a great deal of it), and anyone who cared to respond at all only mentioned football.

So I made a mistake. Sorry. I am assuming that you are completely ignorant about some elements of social injustice (I think I could give you examples from over here), but I am making the same assumption about myself.

Oliver James writes interesting things about the causes of social injustice, particularly the above-average increase in social injustice in the ENglish-speaking world since the introduction of what he calls Selfish Capitalist Governance (Reagan and Thatcher, more or less).

I hope I haven't given further offence!

Go take a look at the rates of early death from non-natural causes among professional football players and compare them to any other popular professional sport. I think you'll find a difference so huge as to be startling. Hence my disinterest in the plight of professional baseball or basketball players. Those guys are still getting a good deal by getting paid fat loot to play a sport. Football players, perhaps, are not being justly compensated for the damage they're incurring to their own bodies.

[East Coast Hustle]

Yeah, I just caught up with that thread. Not sure why anyone's working so ahrd to make such a meaningless point.

Frankly, I'm MUCH more interested in the ethical implications of supporting professional football in the light of concussion damage and CTE becoming known to be prevalent in players at all levels of the game, even high school and below (in the case of concussion damage at least).

What's meaningless about it?

My personal opinion of football is that I can't (and therefore don't) support it, for the reasons you mention, which were taught to me at my pappy's knee. Not just concussion damage, but also joint and spine injuries.

I meant the point holist was trying to make in that thread. Any point that relies upon "in a perfect world it wouldn't have to be that way" is pretty meaningless IMO.

[LMNO]

Go take a look at the rates of early death from non-natural causes among professional football players and compare them to any other popular professional sport. I think you'll find a difference so huge as to be startling. Hence my disinterest in the plight of professional baseball or basketball players. Those guys are still getting a good deal by getting paid fat loot to play a sport. Football players, perhaps, are not being justly compensated for the damage they're incurring to their own bodies.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8274392/comparing-mortality-rates-football-baseball

Baseball players who accrued at least five qualifying seasons from 1959 through 1988 died at a higher rate than similarly experienced football players from the same time frame.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Yeah, I just caught up with that thread. Not sure why anyone's working so ahrd to make such a meaningless point.

Frankly, I'm MUCH more interested in the ethical implications of supporting professional football in the light of concussion damage and CTE becoming known to be prevalent in players at all levels of the game, even high school and below (in the case of concussion damage at least).

What's meaningless about it?

My personal opinion of football is that I can't (and therefore don't) support it, for the reasons you mention, which were taught to me at my pappy's knee. Not just concussion damage, but also joint and spine injuries.

I meant the point holist was trying to make in that thread. Any point that relies upon "in a perfect world it wouldn't have to be that way" is pretty meaningless IMO.

Oh, THAT I agree with 100%!

[Cain]

Clearly, the only solution is to ban sport entirely.  Sport is dangerous, and unhealthy.  Inactivity is the best bet.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

Clearly, the only solution is to ban sport entirely.  Sport is dangerous, and unhealthy.  Inactivity is the best bet.

Sports are fine. But for them to benefit anyone, it's necessary for one to actually participate in the sport. As opposed to what Americans do with football, which is watch them from a distance while inflating to a size where there is a horizon between their eyes and their knees.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Clearly, the only solution is to ban sport entirely.  Sport is dangerous, and unhealthy.  Inactivity is the best bet.

Sports are fine. But for them to benefit anyone, it's necessary for one to actually participate in the sport. As opposed to what Americans do with football, which is watch them from a distance while inflating to a size where there is a horizon between their eyes and their knees.

This! Also, there's something that seems monumentally sick about grooming young boys to become gladiators whose bodies are destroyed in the sport while millions of gluttonous idiots cheer them on from sports bars and sofas across the country.

Sure, a few of those gladiators become unimaginably wealthy. Most of them don't. At least former baseball and basketball players don't typically have the type of completely ruinous health problems former football players usually have, and the story "I could have been great but I was forced to retire before I made any money because my spine was crushed" isn't a particularly typical story in any other sport.

And the rest of us sit, and watch.

[East Coast Hustle]

Go take a look at the rates of early death from non-natural causes among professional football players and compare them to any other popular professional sport. I think you'll find a difference so huge as to be startling. Hence my disinterest in the plight of professional baseball or basketball players. Those guys are still getting a good deal by getting paid fat loot to play a sport. Football players, perhaps, are not being justly compensated for the damage they're incurring to their own bodies.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8274392/comparing-mortality-rates-football-baseball

Baseball players who accrued at least five qualifying seasons from 1959 through 1988 died at a higher rate than similarly experienced football players from the same time frame.

Woah. Without having read the article yet, I'm kinda shocked. I don't give much of a shit about baseball, which is perhaps why I had no idea. I am, however, surprised that I missed the article on Grantland when it was posted. That's one of the handful of sites I bother to check daily.

[East Coast Hustle]

Two points about the Grantland article:

1) They cut the sample pool off at 1988, while the size of the average NFL player has been accelerating rapidly since then. That may or may not have something to do with HGH and PEDs, which also undercuts the study since 1988 was before the use of HGH became much more commonplace.

2) It fails to address a HUGE difference: the prevalence of participation in the respective sports in youth and scholastic leagues. I have no idea whether more young kids play baseball or football, but I'd bet every last penny I have that there's a HUGE gulf in terms of the impact on long-term health from a few years of little league versus the impact from a few years of pop warner football (at an age when the brain is still developing, no less).

[East Coast Hustle]

I'm also curious as to whether or not anybody has combed through the medical record of deceased former NFL players in an attempt to correlate how many of the deaths might have been attributable to CTE and concussion-related damage. There's a school of thought that says the NFL was safer before the advent of new helmet technology because people were less likely to use themselves as a human missile. Without anything to back that up I find myself disagreeing with that idea, but I'd be interested to see the hard data.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Go take a look at the rates of early death from non-natural causes among professional football players and compare them to any other popular professional sport. I think you'll find a difference so huge as to be startling. Hence my disinterest in the plight of professional baseball or basketball players. Those guys are still getting a good deal by getting paid fat loot to play a sport. Football players, perhaps, are not being justly compensated for the damage they're incurring to their own bodies.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8274392/comparing-mortality-rates-football-baseball

Baseball players who accrued at least five qualifying seasons from 1959 through 1988 died at a higher rate than similarly experienced football players from the same time frame.

Woah. Without having read the article yet, I'm kinda shocked. I don't give much of a shit about baseball, which is perhaps why I had no idea. I am, however, surprised that I missed the article on Grantland when it was posted. That's one of the handful of sites I bother to check daily.

I missed that... that is very interesting!

[Dr. Cow Ass]

Dude, I have no idea who the fuck your talking about.