Wage Slavery

[LMNO]

Now, I can kind of imagine some transgressive teen/twenties "rebel" trying to be all bad ass and "you can't tell me what to do/won't this piss off everybody" considering it, and maybe even following through a few times.  But unless there's a serious desperately financial need, I don't see anyone continuing with it if they don't have to.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Now, I can kind of imagine some transgressive teen/twenties "rebel" trying to be all bad ass and "you can't tell me what to do/won't this piss off everybody" considering it, and maybe even following through a few times.  But unless there's a serious desperately financial need, I don't see anyone continuing with it if they don't have to.

Not after the first time they have to fuck some greasy-ass 45-55 year old fat guy with no idea what personal hygiene is.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Nigel; Really sorry if you addressed this already but it's midnight and there's 24 pages of conversation I haven't read, which, from a glance, look kind of painful to read.

I'm just really curious; you said your opinions have changed a lot in regards to sex work and said that that came from conversations here and your own research. I'm wondering what they changed FROM, what they changed TO, and what was the compelling feature that you came across that made that change happen?

When I came here, I believed that sex work can be empowering. I thought that sex work is simply providing a service that fills a need, and that it can be provided as a safe, sane, consensual exchange between equals.

Now, I believe that while under ideal circumstances the above would be true, those ideal circumstances are so unlikely as to contribute negligibly to the overall reality of sex work, and that sex work as it exists in reality contributes negatively to human equality, particularly gender-based human equality. The compelling feature that I came across, or rather which came into focus for me, was isolating the concept of the commodity being sold, and what it is sold for. The commodity is human bodies, and it is sold for physical gratification... consumption, after a fashion. It is peddled like a consumer good. I think this is harmful both to the consumer and to the consumed.

Should it be illegal?

I don't think pornography should be illegal, because I think that legislating what consenting adults do with their bodies as a form of expression is more wrong.

I am torn on prostitution. I don't think prostitution itself should ever be a crime, because that punishes the prostitute, compounding the problem rather than solving it. I think that perhaps rather than criminalizing it, it should be legalized and regulated, and in fact I think that the strongest laws out there should be "Madam laws", which require anyone acting as a manager to be credentialed and licensed, and regulate madam fees. It should be an intensive training (perhaps a graduate program) and an expensive license, and there should also be a prostitution tax which goes into a fund for therapy and education for prostitutes and former prostitutes. Practicing as a madam without a license should be a big, big crime, as should "black market" prostitution, which should simply be considered human trafficking. Further, all prostitutes should need to maintain a state-issued license, and in order to maintain it they would undergo regular STD testing. In order to help minimize human trafficking, in order to obtain a license they must be citizens.

"I got a double bachelors in sociology and pimpology with a masters in whorology."

I like your idea, Nigel! But what about the most desperate people who can't obtain a license because they aren't citizens, can't afford the fees, or whatever? Maybe just a better safety net in place for everybody would fix that?

I don't think they should be punished, and I do think there should be a better safety net in place. Testing and licensing for prostitutes should be free, subsidized by the prostitution tax paid by madams. The citizen/non-citizen issue is really important; other countries with legalized prostitution have major problems with women and girls being imported, essentially as slaves, usually under false pretenses. A work visa is not enough to prevent this from becoming an issue. The point is to try to ensure that women are becoming prostitutes of their own free will, to the greatest extent it is possible to do so.

The idea is to minimize exploitation as much as possible.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The real question in my mind is, given that prostitution was legal and safe and clean and nice, with benefits, how many people would actually choose it as a career? Maybe more than I think?

We're dealing with two stereotypes here - the abused basket case who gets strung out on meth and pimped into it and Julia f'kin Roberts.

I can't wrap my head around the idea of some kid, at 12 or 13 years telling their careers advisor that they know it's going to take a lot of hard work but what they really want to be, when they leave university, is a cum dump for fat, balding middle aged creeps.

Probably a surprising number. I say this because one of my friends was, until recently, a marketing consultant for high-end prostitutes in the Bay area. Many of the girls have pimps, but his job was providing fee-based marketing services for girls who are operating independently. Most of them do have issues, most are in their twenties, and generally they are making a lot of money at this stage in their career. The problem, of course, is that they only last a few years, at which point hopefully they get out of it, because the alternative is ugly.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Nigel; Really sorry if you addressed this already but it's midnight and there's 24 pages of conversation I haven't read, which, from a glance, look kind of painful to read.

I'm just really curious; you said your opinions have changed a lot in regards to sex work and said that that came from conversations here and your own research. I'm wondering what they changed FROM, what they changed TO, and what was the compelling feature that you came across that made that change happen?

When I came here, I believed that sex work can be empowering. I thought that sex work is simply providing a service that fills a need, and that it can be provided as a safe, sane, consensual exchange between equals.

Now, I believe that while under ideal circumstances the above would be true, those ideal circumstances are so unlikely as to contribute negligibly to the overall reality of sex work, and that sex work as it exists in reality contributes negatively to human equality, particularly gender-based human equality. The compelling feature that I came across, or rather which came into focus for me, was isolating the concept of the commodity being sold, and what it is sold for. The commodity is human bodies, and it is sold for physical gratification... consumption, after a fashion. It is peddled like a consumer good. I think this is harmful both to the consumer and to the consumed.

Should it be illegal?

I don't think pornography should be illegal, because I think that legislating what consenting adults do with their bodies as a form of expression is more wrong.

I am torn on prostitution. I don't think prostitution itself should ever be a crime, because that punishes the prostitute, compounding the problem rather than solving it. I think that perhaps rather than criminalizing it, it should be legalized and regulated, and in fact I think that the strongest laws out there should be "Madam laws", which require anyone acting as a manager to be credentialed and licensed, and regulate madam fees. It should be an intensive training (perhaps a graduate program) and an expensive license, and there should also be a prostitution tax which goes into a fund for therapy and education for prostitutes and former prostitutes. Practicing as a madam without a license should be a big, big crime, as should "black market" prostitution, which should simply be considered human trafficking. Further, all prostitutes should need to maintain a state-issued license, and in order to maintain it they would undergo regular STD testing. In order to help minimize human trafficking, in order to obtain a license they must be citizens.

"I got a double bachelors in sociology and pimpology with a masters in whorology."

I like your idea, Nigel! But what about the most desperate people who can't obtain a license because they aren't citizens, can't afford the fees, or whatever? Maybe just a better safety net in place for everybody would fix that?

I don't think they should be punished, and I do think there should be a better safety net in place. Testing and licensing for prostitutes should be free, subsidized by the prostitution tax paid by madams. The citizen/non-citizen issue is really important; other countries with legalized prostitution have major problems with women and girls being imported, essentially as slaves, usually under false pretenses. A work visa is not enough to prevent this from becoming an issue. The point is to try to ensure that women are becoming prostitutes of their own free will, to the greatest extent it is possible to do so.

The idea is to minimize exploitation as much as possible.

THIS is ideal. Yes yes yes yes yes. 

[Placid Dingo]

Interesting little article from The Guardian

Also Nigel the idea you expressed sounds perfect.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Thanks you guys! And #### (that is your name now, in my head) that is a really interesting article, it sounds like a really important step towards equality and respect for sex workers and women is encapsulated in there, without either endorsing the "happy hooker" myth or diminishing the severity of the social conditions that lead to prostitution.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I want to highlight this quote:

Some had been married and returned to sex work full of pity for those women who had to put up with the privations and lack of freedom marriage brings.

I think it says a lot. Under social conditions where marriage includes "privations" and "lack of freedom", prostitution may indeed be an empowering alternative.

[Placid Dingo]

If you have emoji it's SQUID WHALE SQUID WHALE but otherwise its boxes.
I'll get bored of it soon enough.

[LMNO]

Just to point out, to call that arrangement "marriage" is really a disservice to those who got married out of love and respect.

Not that that was your point, nor was it to say that all marriages are perfect exchanges of love, I just felt I needed to say something.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Just to point out, to call that arrangement "marriage" is really a disservice to those who got married out of love and respect.

Not that that was your point, nor was it to say that all marriages are perfect exchanges of love, I just felt I needed to say something.

That was pretty much the purpose of picking out that line... to highlight that normal living conditions for women there are abysmal, so the fact that prostitution is a step up is not so much a glowing recommendation of prostitution but a pretty severe indictment of the inequality of women there.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

so, 11 days late, but my take on the whole legal side of prostitution is I support the Nordic Model, where the women operating as prostitutes are not acting illegally, but men who pay for sex are committing the crime. On conviction the men are fined, and have the charge on record. It's actually decreased trafficking and a lot of street based prostitution. The organised crime side of things is simply too much risk and effort in Sweden. basically removing the anonymity of the purchasers has had an effect, and instead of women being prosecuted, they are given exit strategies. The vast majority of women in prostitution have come to it via a Morton's Fork, the UK figures for age of entering is scaryscaryscary (13-15 is quite common, according to Object, a UK based organisation who campaign against exploitation and objectification of women in society and the media.)

I'm pretty sure I've said this previously, that the legalisation/decriminalisation dopes not help the situation of trafficking of women and girls in Amsterdam. (I think in certain parts of Australia this is also the case)..

As for porn- I think it should be better regulated (banning that actually won't help, IMHO, it'll just make the whole thing seedier..) and that the physical and mental health of the participants would need regular screening..

[The Good Reverend Roger]

so, 11 days late, but my take on the whole legal side of prostitution is I support the Nordic Model, where the women operating as prostitutes are not acting illegally, but men who pay for sex are committing the crime.

What about women hiring gigilos/"escorts"?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

so, 11 days late, but my take on the whole legal side of prostitution is I support the Nordic Model, where the women operating as prostitutes are not acting illegally, but men who pay for sex are committing the crime.

What about women hiring gigilos/"escorts"?

Sauce for the gander is sauce for the goose, IMO.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

so, 11 days late, but my take on the whole legal side of prostitution is I support the Nordic Model, where the women operating as prostitutes are not acting illegally, but men who pay for sex are committing the crime.

What about women hiring gigilos/"escorts"?

Sauce for the gander is sauce for the goose, IMO.

I'd say treating sex and someone's body as a thing that can be bought is pretty abhorrent whichever way it falls, although women are far less likely to buy sex. Straight male escorts are not a widespread thing.