I love the queers

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Labels can be words to describe an identity, and people's identities are important. Would you take away words a person uses to describe themselves?

Uh, labels are words to describe a person's attributes.

Labels are not an identity. The whole reason for oppression and persecution in the first place is the substitution of labels for individual human identity.

And asking everyone you meet what pronoun they prefer is absurd. I'm not going to do it, and honestly, if someone asked me, I would tell them to pick one. If someone obviously presents as a man or a woman, I'll use the pronoun for what they obviously present as and they can correct me if they feel like it. If someone is really that ambiguous I'll either ask them, just use their name, or use whatever pronoun seems contextually appropriate and they can correct me if they feel like it.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Hmm, when I use them, I'm using them to describe identities. Not as identities, per se. It's like a post-it note on a box - the box is that facet of a person's identity, the post-it note is the word they use to describe it.
I'm also gonna note that there's a subculture that has sprung up with these things.

I shall have to think about the dehumanizing argument. I see it, but I'm not entirely sure if I agree.

I've been part of that subculture for longer than you've been breathing.

[Juana]

Shit, it's not like I specified to PD, people who I am willing to trust not to out me, until literally just now. Just something to think about with other people. I might tell a person I prefer "she" if I don't know them, but if they've asked, at least I know I can probably tell them someday.

Labels can be words to describe an identity, and people's identities are important. Would you take away words a person uses to describe themselves?

Uh, labels are words to describe a person's attributes.

Labels are not an identity. The whole reason for oppression and persecution in the first place is the substitution of labels for individual human identity.

And asking everyone you meet what pronoun they prefer is absurd. I'm not going to do it, and honestly, if someone asked me, I would tell them to pick one. If someone obviously presents as a man or a woman, I'll use the pronoun for what they obviously present as and they can correct me if they feel like it. If someone is really that ambiguous I'll either ask them, just use their name, or use whatever pronoun seems contextually appropriate and they can correct me if they feel like it.

Okay, I stand word corrected. That's what I meant.

I never said they were an identity. I said labels are ways a person might use to describe themselves.


I don't see why it's absurd, but okay. I prefer 'they', btw.

Hmm, when I use them, I'm using them to describe identities. Not as identities, per se. It's like a post-it note on a box - the box is that facet of a person's identity, the post-it note is the word they use to describe it.
I'm also gonna note that there's a subculture that has sprung up with these things.

I shall have to think about the dehumanizing argument. I see it, but I'm not entirely sure if I agree.

I've been part of that subculture for longer than you've been breathing.

Okay?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

So would I, because that would mean the norm has changed enough to include us painlessly. But until "what are your pronouns?" is in general etiquette and no one bats an eye at the sexuality sphere, there's going to be one by necessity.

I know this might end up skewing things off on a tangent, but are you suggesting that everyone should on first meeting someone ask them what pronoun they want to be addressed with? Wouldn't be simpler to address someone by the pronoun that seems closest to how they appear until that person indicates otherwise?

Yes. And yes, but I don't see why it's hard to say four extra words when you meet a person.

There are ALL KINDS of things you could say to a person when you first meet them. That just seems unnecessary, invasive, and weird. Why not also ask them what race they are? Or maybe what their sexual preference is? Four little words. It's not so hard.

It's just weird and kind of creepy.

I swear to god if anyone ever asks me what pronoun I prefer I'm going to reply with "Why does it matter to you?"

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Shit, it's not like I specified to PD, people who I am willing to trust not to out me, until literally just now. Just something to think about with other people. I might tell a person I prefer "she" if I don't know them, but if they've asked, at least I know I can probably tell them someday.

Labels can be words to describe an identity, and people's identities are important. Would you take away words a person uses to describe themselves?

Uh, labels are words to describe a person's attributes.

Labels are not an identity. The whole reason for oppression and persecution in the first place is the substitution of labels for individual human identity.

And asking everyone you meet what pronoun they prefer is absurd. I'm not going to do it, and honestly, if someone asked me, I would tell them to pick one. If someone obviously presents as a man or a woman, I'll use the pronoun for what they obviously present as and they can correct me if they feel like it. If someone is really that ambiguous I'll either ask them, just use their name, or use whatever pronoun seems contextually appropriate and they can correct me if they feel like it.

Okay, I stand word corrected. That's what I meant.

I never said they were an identity. I said labels are ways a person might use to describe themselves.


I don't see why it's absurd, but okay. I prefer 'they', btw.

Hmm, when I use them, I'm using them to describe identities. Not as identities, per se. It's like a post-it note on a box - the box is that facet of a person's identity, the post-it note is the word they use to describe it.
I'm also gonna note that there's a subculture that has sprung up with these things.

I shall have to think about the dehumanizing argument. I see it, but I'm not entirely sure if I agree.

I've been part of that subculture for longer than you've been breathing.

Okay?

Just saying. You tend to make assumptions about "informing" people and it comes off a bit insulting. I find it laughable when you do it, because you're just that young and that naive, but I know it pisses some people off.

[Don Coyote]

I would very much like to say yes, but trans* soldiers weren't covered by the DADT repeal. So, no, don't. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't out them, because I think you're a good person, but nevertheless.

Well I wouldn't, but my point is that in the context of the military, people are operating under the assumption that a person's gender is reflected by their chosen appearance. My issue with "what are your pronouns?" isn't the "terrible burden" of being expected to accommodate a queer's preference for address, because that is a stupidly flimsy excuse, it is that seems unnecessary to preface every interaction with a new person with those 4 words. To me, if someone feels that their preferred gender of address  is in someway different from how they were addressed or how they are appearing at the time, then that person would have no trouble in mentioning that after the first exchange.

That being said, I do think that gendered modes of address may be more at fault in this.

[trippinprincezz13]

That was pretty much what I was getting at.

I also had my wife go off on a tangent about Japanese honorifics.

Oh I know, I pretty much just said the same thing in a slightly different way.

So would I, because that would mean the norm has changed enough to include us painlessly. But until "what are your pronouns?" is in general etiquette and no one bats an eye at the sexuality sphere, there's going to be one by necessity.

I know this might end up skewing things off on a tangent, but are you suggesting that everyone should on first meeting someone ask them what pronoun they want to be addressed with? Wouldn't be simpler to address someone by the pronoun that seems closest to how they appear until that person indicates otherwise?

Yes. And yes, but I don't see why it's hard to say four extra words when you meet a person.

You are seriously suggesting that every time I meet a new person I should ask them what pronoun to call them by? Seems like right off the bat as trying to label someone. Might as well get their sexual preference, religion, political views, favorite foods, musical tastes etc. right up front, filled out on the proper forms as well, so I can fit them right away into a neat little box to place on the shelf. Can't I just address everyone as a person?

Yes, I am seriously suggesting that. And no, that's not the same at all. In fact, it's completely the reverse because not asking = speaking to them as if they were a 'he' or a 'she' - that's you labeling them, simply because you don't want to ask four extra words.

No, it's speaking to them as a human being. I can go through many a conversation without using a pronoun and generally refer to people either by their name or they anyway. The only assumption I make with "he" or "she" is whether they have a penis or a vagina and as a whole, I could care less about that (we are breaking down gender roles aren't we? Saying "she" doesn't give me the assumption that someone spends all their time in the kitchen any more than "he" means  someone spends all their time watching football and pounding beers with their boys).  If someone's whole existance is wrapped up in whether they're accidentally referred to as a "he" or "she", well I feel sorry for them. The same as getting your identity wrapped up in any other label. I'm one of the most overly-sensitive-about-other-people's-feelings that I know, but give me a break. If I happen to inadvertently offend someone and they can politely correct me, I'll adjust accordingly, but beyond that I am going to keep dealing with people as people and do my best not to shove them into boxes.

And a label is a label, no matter what you want to call it.

[trippinprincezz13]

I'm gonna use the pronoun they're presenting. 
The drag queen is a she
The drag king is a he
The femme gay man is a he
The butch lesbian is a she
The MtoF trans is a she
The FtoM trans is a he

And if they're somewhere in the middle, when I'm introduced I'll go by biology first, because I know they're going to end up telling me what to call them eventually.

Or put more simply, this.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'm just going to start referring to everyone as "it", and they can suck it up. 

[Juana]

So would I, because that would mean the norm has changed enough to include us painlessly. But until "what are your pronouns?" is in general etiquette and no one bats an eye at the sexuality sphere, there's going to be one by necessity.

I know this might end up skewing things off on a tangent, but are you suggesting that everyone should on first meeting someone ask them what pronoun they want to be addressed with? Wouldn't be simpler to address someone by the pronoun that seems closest to how they appear until that person indicates otherwise?

Yes. And yes, but I don't see why it's hard to say four extra words when you meet a person.

There are ALL KINDS of things you could say to a person when you first meet them. That just seems unnecessary, invasive, and weird. Why not also ask them what race they are? Or maybe what their sexual preference is? Four little words. It's not so hard.

It's just weird and kind of creepy.

I swear to god if anyone ever asks me what pronoun I prefer I'm going to reply with "Why does it matter to you?"

Okay? I'd prefer it, actually, but I guess I'm just weird.

Shit, it's not like I specified to PD, people who I am willing to trust not to out me, until literally just now. Just something to think about with other people. I might tell a person I prefer "she" if I don't know them, but if they've asked, at least I know I can probably tell them someday.

Labels can be words to describe an identity, and people's identities are important. Would you take away words a person uses to describe themselves?

Uh, labels are words to describe a person's attributes.

Labels are not an identity. The whole reason for oppression and persecution in the first place is the substitution of labels for individual human identity.

And asking everyone you meet what pronoun they prefer is absurd. I'm not going to do it, and honestly, if someone asked me, I would tell them to pick one. If someone obviously presents as a man or a woman, I'll use the pronoun for what they obviously present as and they can correct me if they feel like it. If someone is really that ambiguous I'll either ask them, just use their name, or use whatever pronoun seems contextually appropriate and they can correct me if they feel like it.

Okay, I stand word corrected. That's what I meant.

I never said they were an identity. I said labels are ways a person might use to describe themselves.


I don't see why it's absurd, but okay. I prefer 'they', btw.

Hmm, when I use them, I'm using them to describe identities. Not as identities, per se. It's like a post-it note on a box - the box is that facet of a person's identity, the post-it note is the word they use to describe it.
I'm also gonna note that there's a subculture that has sprung up with these things.

I shall have to think about the dehumanizing argument. I see it, but I'm not entirely sure if I agree.

I've been part of that subculture for longer than you've been breathing.

Okay?

Just saying. You tend to make assumptions about "informing" people and it comes off a bit insulting. I find it laughable when you do it, because you're just that young and that naive, but I know it pisses some people off.

I certainly don't mean to come off that way. And I know everyone knows about that, I just brought it up because I think people sometimes don't think about it in the context of these discussions.
I'll try to be more aware of how I sound.

[Don Coyote]

That was pretty much what I was getting at.

I also had my wife go off on a tangent about Japanese honorifics.

Oh I know, I pretty much just said the same thing in a slightly different way.

I know you knew.

Also ITT PD saying the same thing in 50 different ways.

[Cardinal Pizza Deliverance.]

So would I, because that would mean the norm has changed enough to include us painlessly. But until "what are your pronouns?" is in general etiquette and no one bats an eye at the sexuality sphere, there's going to be one by necessity.

I know this might end up skewing things off on a tangent, but are you suggesting that everyone should on first meeting someone ask them what pronoun they want to be addressed with? Wouldn't be simpler to address someone by the pronoun that seems closest to how they appear until that person indicates otherwise?

Yes. And yes, but I don't see why it's hard to say four extra words when you meet a person.

There are ALL KINDS of things you could say to a person when you first meet them. That just seems unnecessary, invasive, and weird. Why not also ask them what race they are? Or maybe what their sexual preference is? Four little words. It's not so hard.

It's just weird and kind of creepy.

I swear to god if anyone ever asks me what pronoun I prefer I'm going to reply with "Why does it matter to you?"

This reminds me of a funny story.

Last time I hung out with a group of all lesbians and trans and whatever it was a party of sorts that I'd been tricked into. I hate parties. And surprises. So the hostess walks up, plays a five minute round of tonsil hockey with the friend I showed up with, also a lesbian, then turns to me and says HI!!! HoW ARE YOU!?!??! I HOPE YOU DON'T MIND, I'M JUST REALLY AFFECTIONATE!@! DO YOU PREFER MALE OR FEMALE PRONOUNS?

I told her it was dealer's choice. She immediately quit being loud and bubbly and glared at me. Then she said I had to choose. I told her I didn't, and shrugged. She asked me why. I told her I didn't care. It didn't matter to me.

The music died and pins were afraid to drop.

Then someone said they felt disrespected by my complete apathy to their ETERNAL STRUGGLE and the hostess asked me to leave. I saluted and walked out, slapping my friend on the back and whistling a merry tune as I went.

I wasn't deliberately being difficult. I just really don't give a fuck. And that's disrespectful.

[Elder Iptuous]

Wait....
what does referring to an individual as 'they' indicate in this context?

[Don Coyote]

I'm just going to start referring to everyone as "it", and they can suck it up. 

That's why I just do a lot of grunting and pointing. And using "dude." It is also extremely easy to have a conversation without using pronouns and other gendered words to address people.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Also I have to say that I have a HUGE, I mean ENORMOUS, philosophical problem, as in outright anger, towards women who decide that their response to oppressive gender roles and not identifying with the Western gender role assigned to "woman" is simply to declare themselves not female. It, to me, is like avoiding tackling racial oppression by passing for white. It's a cop-out, a side-step, and an abandonment.