I love the queers

[Juana]

"They are" is still appropriate, I think? I don't care too much either way, but "are" sounds more correct than "is".

[Cardinal Pizza Deliverance.]

Also I have to say that I have a HUGE, I mean ENORMOUS, philosophical problem, as in outright anger, towards women who decide that their response to oppressive gender roles and not identifying with the Western gender role assigned to "woman" is simply to declare themselves not female. It, to me, is like avoiding tackling racial oppression by passing for white. It's a cop-out, a side-step, and an abandonment.

This isn't directed at me, is it? Because I'm female, there's no denying that. And I'm generally okay with it. But I'm not a woman, and I don't see how this would be an abandonment.

Oh, it totally is. Because "woman" as a gender construct is as fluid as the society that constructs it, and opting out doesn't reshape anything. See my argument regarding the requirement most hospitals have for MTF transsexuals to "live as a woman" for a year before they can qualify for surgery. What is "living as a woman"? As far as I can tell, I don't fit the criteria.

As far as I can tell, I piss people off because I don't act like a proper woman. But I'll fuck you all in the face a thousand times if you try to tell me I'm not, because I'd rather reshape the construct of what a woman is in our society than cop out by declaring myself not a woman.

See, this is something I spent a good three years thinking about. I do not feel like a chick. In all my dreams I'm a guy. When I wake up, I've got morning wood until I open my eyes :P I don't walk like a chick or talk like one - half of the people here still think I am a guy. :P - If I'd wear a binder or get my tits cut off, I'd pass 100% of the time as a male instead of the 50% I do now, without trying.

BUT. Given that I come from a very abusive childhood and family group and that I've been told my whole life I am 1.) automatically a whore because I am a female, and 2.) I disappointed the entire family forever because I'm my father's first child and I'm anatomically female, not male - how much of that baggage has shaped how I perceive things? And how much of the following beating and brainwashing shaped my dreams and how I act and whatever else?

I thought about it for years then decided it was one big nature or nurture argument that I didn't care about. I decided against gender reassignment surgery and pissed off all my trans friends. I decided I didn't care about pronouns and pissed off all my gender-fluid friends. It's still an interesting puzzle but it doesn't decide my identity or anything.

It's why I started telling people I was the cardboard cut-out of a gay, male, pizza delivery feline in the body of a bi, human female. But then the whole multiplicity/furry thing blew up and fuck that noise.

[Mangrove]

I must live a very sheltered life. I will be probably be 100 years old before I find myself in a situation where I am wracking my brain to figure out which pronoun I need to use.

Where are you people hanging out where every new person is a veritable gender pronoun obstacle course? (Is this because I don't frequent bars & clubs for instance?)

Where I live (a town of about 5000 largely affluent white people), the chance of me needing to say 'zhe' is about as likely as me accidentally calling a 'Baron' a 'Viscount'.

They're everywhere. You just aren't looking under the right rocks. Granted, most of my friends I met online in the #nanowrimo chatroom OR are pagans that I met through my former coven.

Although CT has been a 'blue state' for a while, where I live is comically filled with Republicans. Mrs Mang & I have gay friends, but they're older, married couples and are, like ourselves, totally run of the mill. Maybe we're hanging with the wrong kind of lesbians?

The only transgendered people I've encountered in a very long time was a MtF wiccan in a local new age shop and the ambiguous dude in Starbucks once. Openly queer folk are not common in these parts.

 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

As far as I can tell, I piss people off because I don't act like a proper woman. But I'll fuck you all in the face a thousand times if you try to tell me I'm not, because I'd rather reshape the construct of what a woman is in our society than cop out by declaring myself not a woman.

YOU GO, GIRL!





Wait... is "girl" okay?

[Cardinal Pizza Deliverance.]

I must live a very sheltered life. I will be probably be 100 years old before I find myself in a situation where I am wracking my brain to figure out which pronoun I need to use.

Where are you people hanging out where every new person is a veritable gender pronoun obstacle course? (Is this because I don't frequent bars & clubs for instance?)

Where I live (a town of about 5000 largely affluent white people), the chance of me needing to say 'zhe' is about as likely as me accidentally calling a 'Baron' a 'Viscount'.

They're everywhere. You just aren't looking under the right rocks. Granted, most of my friends I met online in the #nanowrimo chatroom OR are pagans that I met through my former coven.

Although CT has been a 'blue state' for a while, where I live is comically filled with Republicans. Mrs Mang & I have gay friends, but they're older, married couples and are, like ourselves, totally run of the mill. Maybe we're hanging with the wrong kind of lesbians?

The only transgendered people I've encountered in a very long time was a MtF wiccan in a local new age shop and the ambiguous dude in Starbucks once. Openly queer folk are not common in these parts.

Go to Iowa City, Iowa and the Quad Cities, Iowa. I can guarantee you can walk down the street about three blocks and go WTF?!??! at least a dozen times.

[Pæs]

Actually, now it's LGBTQQIA.

Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer, Questioning, Intersex, and Allies.

Requesting an update on the proper terminology.  I can't keep up.

[Mangrove]

I must live a very sheltered life. I will be probably be 100 years old before I find myself in a situation where I am wracking my brain to figure out which pronoun I need to use.

Where are you people hanging out where every new person is a veritable gender pronoun obstacle course? (Is this because I don't frequent bars & clubs for instance?)

Where I live (a town of about 5000 largely affluent white people), the chance of me needing to say 'zhe' is about as likely as me accidentally calling a 'Baron' a 'Viscount'.

They're everywhere. You just aren't looking under the right rocks. Granted, most of my friends I met online in the #nanowrimo chatroom OR are pagans that I met through my former coven.

Although CT has been a 'blue state' for a while, where I live is comically filled with Republicans. Mrs Mang & I have gay friends, but they're older, married couples and are, like ourselves, totally run of the mill. Maybe we're hanging with the wrong kind of lesbians?

The only transgendered people I've encountered in a very long time was a MtF wiccan in a local new age shop and the ambiguous dude in Starbucks once. Openly queer folk are not common in these parts.

Go to Iowa City, Iowa and the Quad Cities, Iowa. I can guarantee you can walk down the street about three blocks and go WTF?!??! at least a dozen times.

Iowa? Really? Wow...

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I must live a very sheltered life. I will be probably be 100 years old before I find myself in a situation where I am wracking my brain to figure out which pronoun I need to use.

Where are you people hanging out where every new person is a veritable gender pronoun obstacle course? (Is this because I don't frequent bars & clubs for instance?)

Where I live (a town of about 5000 largely affluent white people), the chance of me needing to say 'zhe' is about as likely as me accidentally calling a 'Baron' a 'Viscount'.

They are EVERYFUCKINGWHERE here, and yet it's still not an obstacle course. The occasional person decides that they REALLY need to make a public scene about how special they are, but that's not that common. Plus it's usually because they're a kid, and they grow out of it and learn to be more tolerant and accepting of other people's inability to read minds.

[Cardinal Pizza Deliverance.]

I must live a very sheltered life. I will be probably be 100 years old before I find myself in a situation where I am wracking my brain to figure out which pronoun I need to use.

Where are you people hanging out where every new person is a veritable gender pronoun obstacle course? (Is this because I don't frequent bars & clubs for instance?)

Where I live (a town of about 5000 largely affluent white people), the chance of me needing to say 'zhe' is about as likely as me accidentally calling a 'Baron' a 'Viscount'.

They're everywhere. You just aren't looking under the right rocks. Granted, most of my friends I met online in the #nanowrimo chatroom OR are pagans that I met through my former coven.

Although CT has been a 'blue state' for a while, where I live is comically filled with Republicans. Mrs Mang & I have gay friends, but they're older, married couples and are, like ourselves, totally run of the mill. Maybe we're hanging with the wrong kind of lesbians?

The only transgendered people I've encountered in a very long time was a MtF wiccan in a local new age shop and the ambiguous dude in Starbucks once. Openly queer folk are not common in these parts.

Go to Iowa City, Iowa and the Quad Cities, Iowa. I can guarantee you can walk down the street about three blocks and go WTF?!??! at least a dozen times.

Iowa? Really? Wow...

I know. I wasn't expecting it either. Children of the corn? Yes. People walking around in rainbow thongs and knee-high glitter boots all year 'round? Not so much.

[Juana]

Although I have taken a certain amount of guilty pleasure in asking male or female sexed people who prefer neutral pronouns why they insist on diminishing the struggle of intersex people. 

If this is another snark at me, please be direct. An intersex person will be raised one way or another and may or may not ID as a man or a woman. They might be non-binary. IDK. "They" is not what I think an intersex person should automatically be called.

I must live a very sheltered life. I will be probably be 100 years old before I find myself in a situation where I am wracking my brain to figure out which pronoun I need to use.

Where are you people hanging out where every new person is a veritable gender pronoun obstacle course? (Is this because I don't frequent bars & clubs for instance?)

Where I live (a town of about 5000 largely affluent white people), the chance of me needing to say 'zhe' is about as likely as me accidentally calling a 'Baron' a 'Viscount'.

They are EVERYFUCKINGWHERE here, and yet it's still not an obstacle course. The occasional person decides that they REALLY need to make a public scene about how special they are, but that's not that common. Plus it's usually because they're a kid, and they grow out of it and learn to be more tolerant and accepting of other people's inability to read minds.

Again, if this is a swipe at me, please be direct. I sure as fuck don't care how other people ID and I don't get het up about the fact that people can't read minds. How long have I been on this board before saying anything? How may times has someone here called me a "she"? I didn't snap at anyone, and frankly wish I hadn't said anything at all at this point. JFC, it's not a big deal.

[Elder Iptuous]

"They are" is still appropriate, I think? I don't care too much either way, but "are" sounds more correct than "is".

Pronouns and conjugation?
this is terribly confusing. (which i approve of, but cannot see as srs)

[Juana]

*sigh* fine. Don't. Call me a "she". This is more trouble than it was worth.

(not mad at you, just frustrated)

[Cardinal Pizza Deliverance.]

Although I have taken a certain amount of guilty pleasure in asking male or female sexed people who prefer neutral pronouns why they insist on diminishing the struggle of intersex people. 

If this is another snark at me, please be direct. An intersex person will be raised one way or another and may or may not ID as a man or a woman. They might be non-binary. IDK. "They" is not what I think an intersex person should automatically be called.

I must live a very sheltered life. I will be probably be 100 years old before I find myself in a situation where I am wracking my brain to figure out which pronoun I need to use.

Where are you people hanging out where every new person is a veritable gender pronoun obstacle course? (Is this because I don't frequent bars & clubs for instance?)

Where I live (a town of about 5000 largely affluent white people), the chance of me needing to say 'zhe' is about as likely as me accidentally calling a 'Baron' a 'Viscount'.

They are EVERYFUCKINGWHERE here, and yet it's still not an obstacle course. The occasional person decides that they REALLY need to make a public scene about how special they are, but that's not that common. Plus it's usually because they're a kid, and they grow out of it and learn to be more tolerant and accepting of other people's inability to read minds.

Again, if this is a swipe at me, please be direct. I sure as fuck don't care how other people ID and I don't get het up about the fact that people can't read minds. How long have I been on this board before saying anything? How may times has someone here called me a "she"? I didn't snap at anyone, and frankly wish I hadn't said anything at all at this point. JFC, it's not a big deal.

I agree with you there. It's an interesting discussion, but it's counter-productive to get pissed off about it. ( I thought I was the only person who used 'het up', )

[Juana]

Although I have taken a certain amount of guilty pleasure in asking male or female sexed people who prefer neutral pronouns why they insist on diminishing the struggle of intersex people. 

If this is another snark at me, please be direct. An intersex person will be raised one way or another and may or may not ID as a man or a woman. They might be non-binary. IDK. "They" is not what I think an intersex person should automatically be called.

I must live a very sheltered life. I will be probably be 100 years old before I find myself in a situation where I am wracking my brain to figure out which pronoun I need to use.

Where are you people hanging out where every new person is a veritable gender pronoun obstacle course? (Is this because I don't frequent bars & clubs for instance?)

Where I live (a town of about 5000 largely affluent white people), the chance of me needing to say 'zhe' is about as likely as me accidentally calling a 'Baron' a 'Viscount'.

They are EVERYFUCKINGWHERE here, and yet it's still not an obstacle course. The occasional person decides that they REALLY need to make a public scene about how special they are, but that's not that common. Plus it's usually because they're a kid, and they grow out of it and learn to be more tolerant and accepting of other people's inability to read minds.

Again, if this is a swipe at me, please be direct. I sure as fuck don't care how other people ID and I don't get het up about the fact that people can't read minds. How long have I been on this board before saying anything? How may times has someone here called me a "she"? I didn't snap at anyone, and frankly wish I hadn't said anything at all at this point. JFC, it's not a big deal.

I agree with you there. It's an interesting discussion, but it's counter-productive to get pissed off about it. ( I thought I was the only person who used 'het up', )

Nah, lol. It's not something I grew up using, but I like the sound of the words.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Also I have to say that I have a HUGE, I mean ENORMOUS, philosophical problem, as in outright anger, towards women who decide that their response to oppressive gender roles and not identifying with the Western gender role assigned to "woman" is simply to declare themselves not female. It, to me, is like avoiding tackling racial oppression by passing for white. It's a cop-out, a side-step, and an abandonment.

This isn't directed at me, is it? Because I'm female, there's no denying that. And I'm generally okay with it. But I'm not a woman, and I don't see how this would be an abandonment.

Oh, it totally is. Because "woman" as a gender construct is as fluid as the society that constructs it, and opting out doesn't reshape anything. See my argument regarding the requirement most hospitals have for MTF transsexuals to "live as a woman" for a year before they can qualify for surgery. What is "living as a woman"? As far as I can tell, I don't fit the criteria.

As far as I can tell, I piss people off because I don't act like a proper woman. But I'll fuck you all in the face a thousand times if you try to tell me I'm not, because I'd rather reshape the construct of what a woman is in our society than cop out by declaring myself not a woman.

See, this is something I spent a good three years thinking about. I do not feel like a chick. In all my dreams I'm a guy. When I wake up, I've got morning wood until I open my eyes :P I don't walk like a chick or talk like one - half of the people here still think I am a guy. :P - If I'd wear a binder or get my tits cut off, I'd pass 100% of the time as a male instead of the 50% I do now, without trying.

BUT. Given that I come from a very abusive childhood and family group and that I've been told my whole life I am 1.) automatically a whore because I am a female, and 2.) I disappointed the entire family forever because I'm my father's first child and I'm anatomically female, not male - how much of that baggage has shaped how I perceive things? And how much of the following beating and brainwashing shaped my dreams and how I act and whatever else?

I thought about it for years then decided it was one big nature or nurture argument that I didn't care about. I decided against gender reassignment surgery and pissed off all my trans friends. I decided I didn't care about pronouns and pissed off all my gender-fluid friends. It's still an interesting puzzle but it doesn't decide my identity or anything.

It's why I started telling people I was the cardboard cut-out of a gay, male, pizza delivery feline in the body of a bi, human female. But then the whole multiplicity/furry thing blew up and fuck that noise.

Yeah, I used to tell people that I'm an effeminate bi man in the body of a bi woman. 

When I was young most people assumed I was a boy. I wore my hair buzzed until I was 18.

I was pretty confused by this for a long time; I like my body the way it is, but I don't "feel feminine". And then I realized that it's part of the social pressure to fit into a binary; the dissonance is not between my body and my personality, but between societal expectations of someone with my body, and my personality. That's when I decided, FUCK THAT, my womanhood is what I say it is.

I AM THE BOSS OF WHAT A WOMAN LOOKS AND ACTS LIKE. And so are you. And so is any non-traditional female who steps up and owns the title of "woman". Even if they have a dick.