Unlimited "Guns, Fuck Yeah!" Thread

[Elder Iptuous]

grandfathering will definitely change the market for papered guns.  current price for an M16 is 20grand.
hell an Ingram is considered an entry level gun for auto and they go for 3grand when they were initially two for a nickel.

but fully automatic were considered fringe and unpopular in 86 when FOPA banned new manufacture of them.  they were considered simply a waste of ammo.  they became sexy to the wider gun culture only after they were banned.
I think it would be a much different issue trying to ban items such as the semi auto AR15, which is one of the most widely sold guns today, used for every lawful purpose there is.  it just wouldn't go down smoothly, and i think instead of getting them all on the books with the temptation that they would be grandfathered as legal for that individual to own, you would find that there were a tremendous number that were lost in tragic boating accidents all of a sudden.

[AFK]

Fair point and one that would definitely need to be considered and incorporated.

[Elder Iptuous]

it should be considered, but i don't think incorporated is an option.  the point was that a ban on widely used guns is most definitely going to cause some percentage of the population to accept that they are now criminals, and acquire/create 'scarier' weapons than they currently have.  my contention is that this portion of the gun owning public is likely much larger than one might think if they weren't aware of the mindset of the gun culture and technical issues involved.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

How exactly is being fixated on "ban guns" and refusing to look at or discuss the root causes of gun violence "looking at the big picture"? 

[AFK]

it should be considered, but i don't think incorporated is an option.  the point was that a ban on widely used guns is most definitely going to cause some percentage of the population to accept that they are now criminals, and acquire/create 'scarier' weapons than they currently have.  my contention is that this portion of the gun owning public is likely much larger than one might think if they weren't aware of the mindset of the gun culture and technical issues involved.

Well I meant incorporated more in the sense of incorporating it into the discussion as the policy is created/written.    I wouldn't pretend that this isn't a very complex issue for policymaking.  And it's why I say again that gun control, and specifically any gun ban, would be one piece in a larger initiative.  You'd need other policies to compliment and pick up where a gun control policy will fall short simply out of its unavoidable limitations.

[Elder Iptuous]

ah. gotcha.
why not simply go whole hog with the other measures rather than spending time, money, and political capitol on ineffective gun bans then?

what examples of gun control (in the sense of banned or heavily restricted items) have been successful thus far?
and what items, in your estimation, if successfully enforced would be of further benefit?  do you believe that the features in the AWB would be beneficial in reducing gun deaths?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Really going out on a limb, looking at the big picture, talking about edgy topics nobody else will touch, like gun control. 

RWHN: Using his powers for good.

[AFK]

Well, I would look at it similarly to substance abuse prevention, and NO, I'm not pretending it is a perfect analogy.  But with substance abuse prevention, reducing access to substances is ONE strategy.  Yes, on its own it is a very ineffective policy, but as part of a comprehensive strategic plan that addresses multiple root causes and local conditions, it is a good tool.


So I think it would be important, if it hasn't been done, to have a rigorous, comprehensive assessment of the problem.  And yes, certainly the economy plays into that, but what specifically is it about the economy?  Because not all, nor even a majority, of poor people are out getting guns to commit violent crimes.  So it is obviously something a little deeper and involved then "it's the economy stupid".  Indeed, what we are really looking for is the crossover of root causes.  Where does gun access cross with the economy,okay let's develop a strategy for that.  Where does mental healthandaccess to guns crossover, let's do something about that.  Where do guns and substance abuse intersect?  Let's do something about that.  And so on.  I find it very hard to believe that access to guns is not in some way a part of the problem.  But I also know, that alone, is not THE problem.


The solution to this problem is a menu.  It isn't an entree.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Well, I would look at it similarly to substance abuse prevention, and NO, I'm not pretending it is a perfect analogy.  But with substance abuse prevention, reducing access to substances is ONE strategy.  Yes, on its own it is a very ineffective policy, but as part of a comprehensive strategic plan that addresses multiple root causes and local conditions, it is a good tool.


So I think it would be important, if it hasn't been done, to have a rigorous, comprehensive assessment of the problem.  And yes, certainly the economy plays into that, but what specifically is it about the economy?  Because not all, nor even a majority, of poor people are out getting guns to commit violent crimes.  So it is obviously something a little deeper and involved then "it's the economy stupid".  Indeed, what we are really looking for is the crossover of root causes.  Where does gun access cross with the economy,okay let's develop a strategy for that.  Where does mental healthandaccess to guns crossover, let's do something about that.  Where do guns and substance abuse intersect?  Let's do something about that.  And so on.  I find it very hard to believe that access to guns is not in some way a part of the problem.  But I also know, that alone, is not THE problem.


The solution to this problem is a menu.  It isn't an entree.

You didn't read the research I linked about income inequality and gun violence.

I mean, come on, it's your topic, at least bother to KIND OF SORT OF TRY to have some awareness of the issues around it.

The "big picture" thing is still cracking me up. 

[AFK]

Okay, so income equality and gun violence.


So what is your SPECIFIC strategy to address that? 


You can't just say "fix the economy", because that is too broad and that isn't how strategic planning works.


You have to take your root cause and drill down to the specific local condition that is influencing gun violence.  That is what you address with your strategies and your policy.


So what are the specific conditions and what specific strategies do you think would address them?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Maybe you should tell the sociology department at Harvard about your idea to do a rigorous, comprehensive assessment of the problem.

[AFK]

So you have no ideas then? 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Okay, so income equality and gun violence.


So what is your SPECIFIC strategy to address that? 


You can't just say "fix the economy", because that is too broad and that isn't how strategic planning works.


You have to take your root cause and drill down to the specific local condition that is influencing gun violence.  That is what you address with your strategies and your policy.


So what are the specific conditions and what specific strategies do you think would address them?

Nothing earthshaking; same thing that sociologists and economists have been saying for decades. It's not about "fixing the economy", it's about reducing the income disparities by instituting a maximum wage, heavier progressive taxation for the rich, and a minimum standard of living safety net.

[AFK]

Well, those are great long-term goals.  But what are you going to do about the problem RIGHT NOW?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

One thing you would find if you actually did a minimum of easily-accessible research instead of being our very own armchair social critic, is that people whose actual job it is to study and try to understand these things, actually do study and try to understand them, and they write papers and stuff about what they find out.

Your "thoughts" aren't exactly groundbreaking. Your delusions of grandeur are amusing, though.