On the knee-jerk.

[Salty]

I got pretty defensive and launched right into EXTREME THINKING.

Sorry about that. Nigel, I certainly don't intend to say it's my place to judge where people draw the lines in their lives, or what they need out of life to be happy. And I realize, after some consideration, Nobody is under any obligation to spend their lives taking care of other people, for any reason. I definitely don't think you should be launched into the sun. Really, I don't want to launch anyone into the sun.

Except for Sarah Palin, Enya, and people who fail to use a turn signal.

Except, of course, if a persons child becomes severely ill or disabled. In that case it certainly seems to me that, as you created and brought this life to that point, it's your load to bear. As a society we should help those that cannot help themselves, and we should provide a net for people that have to care for children who need it.

I realize I might be coming at this from the wrong angle, but it comes down to responsibility, yeah? You're not responsible for your spouse's drinking problem or depression (unless in you are, in which case that doesn't sound like a healthy relationship). You shouldn't have to torture yourself by giving yourself that burden. What if your spouse loses their legs in a car accident and get depression as a result? What if they get into a car accident and can no longer function in many ways that do not require full hospitalization? Again, ultimately, you're not responsible for that.

There's nothing in the whole world that says that you HAVE to stick through a marriage like that.

What if you say that you would? Most marriage vows I have ever heard involve the same things over and over. I even verbally amended my own to make sure I didn't promise to do or be anything I won't, because otherwise I'd just be lying. If I were to become a burden on my wife I would prefer she leave and be happy than be miserable because of my illness. I would certainly prefer she leave if I became abusive, just as I would leave in the same situation. But I would ultimately prefer that she help me and see me though what she can so I can at least have what joy I could in her presence. And this is what I would do for her, for as far into the limits of my tolerance to bear the weight, and maybe past it because I don't know when to quit sometimes.

That said, my own has had a very serious problem crop up in this regard. I have just gotten to the point, a month into my actual marriage, where there is only the once more and I'm done. It takes quite a bit to bring me to that point.

Now, every marriage is it's own thing. What makes one person happy, what keeps them satisfied, what makes a partnership between two individuals possible varies so widely that details are so important. I would even say that most relationships are founded and broken on them. Details matter when you're hole'd up with another monkey.

Who am I to say what details should matter when to whom? Nobody, that's who.

And of course, abuse is abuse is abuse. No matter the details.

Behavior is important, regardless of intent or condition. Effort has to come from both sides to maintain a healthy sense of how you're actively treating the other person, otherwise things are just going to slip.

Another point, marriage has for some time been used to control women to truly ugly and evil levels. And there are many people who think you're supposed to stay with someone NO MATTER WHAT and endure LARGE AMOUNTS OF SUFFERING because you promised or some bullshit. I certainly think that's a stupid thing to do, and shitty advice to give.

Ah, sorry, I got nothing more. My brain and body are exhausted, I'm using a standing desk for the first time, and don't have my laptop. I do hope most of that was coherent and none of it makes me look like a complete asshole.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Biped behavior, ITT.

[Salty]

Biped behavior, ITT.

Let that be a lesson to you lurkers and other shy people. Sometimes, most times, it's hard to ACT like a biped and UNDERSTAND it at the same time. At least, for this guy it is. Maybe it's because you can't use your entire brain and watch it at the same time and more than you can process two sets of words at the same time.

[Salty]

Also, no depression is not like cancer. I'm sorry if I have implied that.

What gets me mad is when people just...give up. Many people just give in at the first hint of difficulty, no matter the context. Maybe its just because I've been given up on too many times, AFTER I put in the tremendous amounts off effort that is typical for me.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Also, no depression is not like cancer. I'm sorry if I have implied that.

What gets me mad is when people just...give up. Many people just give in at the first hint of difficulty, no matter the context. Maybe its just because I've been given up on too many times, AFTER I put in the tremendous amounts off effort that is typical for me.

Depression is a state of mind where "giving up" seems to be a reasonable option.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Great post, and no worries, Alty.

There's a great, big, huge gray area in that "what would you do?" question. Because I would not abandon my mate FOR becoming sick or disabled... but I would not necessarily feel obliged to stay with them JUST BECAUSE they were sick or disabled, either. Of course a parent should never abandon a child... they are responsible for that child. Hell, in a sense we are, as adults, responsible for other people's children, too. But there are exceptions even to that, because a parent to is incapable of parenting shouldn't selfishly try to keep a child they are unable to raise without endangering it. But when do you leave and how do you make a decision like that? There's no one right answer. It just... depends. On the people. On the situation.

I have given up on people. My first husband, who used to hold me down and rape me when I was eighteen years old, begged me not to give up on him.

When do you give up? We went to counseling, I went to individual and group therapy for years, he briefly went to a sex addiction group, he went to NA, but in the end it still sucked. He was still an abusive addict. It was still bad. I gave up on him, and the only thing I have ever regretted about that is that I didn't give up sooner.

Here's the thing about giving up on people: when it comes down to the bottom line, it's not YOU who can help them. They have to help themselves. And they sure as shit are not going to help themselves if you're stuck in some fucked-up dysfunctional relationship with them, so at some point, you're not doing anyone any good by staying, least of all yourself. So you move on, and grow, and have a better life without them, and hope that somehow they will also figure out how to move on, and grow, and have a better life without you.

You can't fix people. People have to fix themselves. You can support them while they're fixing themselves, but it's too easy for supporting to become enabling, and then no fixing gets done. I think that's one of the reasons why every therapist I had in those early years when I was a total hot mess said "This is work that is best done when you're single." They were right.

So if the person who is supposed to be fixing themselves hangs on to the idea that someone has to stand by them during that process, they're using them as a crutch. They aren't really fixing themselves, because they're still relying on this idea of external support instead of internal growth. Abandonment is sad and feels terrible, but sometimes it's not only necessary, it's healthy.

As a veteran of some seriously fucked-up, unhealthy relationships, I have fortunately gotten a lot better at cutting and running. I can do it BEFORE I'm seriously entangled now, instead of well into a relationship. Some people might think I'm a cold-hearted selfish bitch, but I can smell broken coming a mile away now, and I want no fucking part of it. Unless it's one of my kids it's not my problem. Any adult who thinks I'm part of their cure is only out to leech time, energy, and resources from me, and I do not have those to give so I cut them loose as soon as I see it. 

And I'm sure they cry and are resentful and mad at me and the world for abandoning them, but you know what? Sometimes "abandonment" is just another word for "healthy boundaries".

[Pergamos]

Abuse is abuse is abuse isn't true though.  Physical abuse is one thing, that's easy to point at and go "look, he beats her up, he's a piece of shit and she needs to get away and get a protection order" most abuse though isn't physical, it's emotional and at that point it gets way more complex.   Where is the line between "She had a shitty day at work and he was being an asshole and she explained that to him in elaborate detail" and "She verbally abused him"  That depends on the people involved as much as it does the situation and it's not something easy to point out in a lot of cases. 

Of course any relationship where it becomes a real question is probably a relationship that should end, but usually that sort of abuse is mutual, it isn't going in just one direction and accusing the other partner of being emotionally abusive is often a way to avoid taking responsibility for one's own bullshit.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

A word on marriage: In my experience and observation, no matter how enlightened we think we are, a lot of people, especially very damaged people, are on their best behavior right up until that marriage certificate is signed. Then, on some, probably subconscious level, they let down their guard and their demons come out to the light.

Sometimes people work through that. But in my opinion, anyone who holds the idea that now you HAVE to put up with their bullshit because you married them is not a person who is going to work through anything. And if their post-wedding behavior is significantly different from their pre-wedding behavior, they are, on some very intrinsic level, dishonest, and it's not a bad sign that you ought to consider your escape plan before it's too late to get out easily.

[Salty]

I can see what you're saying there. That helps me see it from a different perspective.

There's always a point where you have to distance yourself from people for your own safety, and the sooner you can recognize it the better, AND its better to play it safe than risk fucjing your shit up.

As someone who pays very careful attention to how I treat people as a result of being physically and emotionally abused as a child Idon't tolerate that kind of behavior in myself and others around me. I'm actually very selective about people now that I think about it for that very reason.

I think thus has actually helped me break through one of my long standing grudges.

Since my ex left me I've had a whole lot of hate in my heart for her. That'll probably never go away, due to some of the things she has said to me, and the manner in which she left me. There's only so much assault my dignity can stand.

I had been depressed, which was highly unsualy for me, for about six months. Every single day I went out and looked for work, changed my attitude about how and where I could work, started getting over my intense fear of men. I had just gotten shit together, just got a job at ATT. I walked in the door and she said, "I'm leaving". No warning, no alternatives, nothing. And I had done nothing abusive. She said I had taken advantage of her by tying to be an LMT while she worked (just gotten the job at ATT, mind you) just like her ex husband.......who when he lost his job at a bank for stealing a grand from some old ladies savings just sat around watching TV and smoking pot.

She was worried I was going to be the same way.

And I have hated her for that because that guy was a piece of shif, IS a lying, thriving, cheating piece of filth and I am not.

But maybe now, I'm thinking, maybe I shouldn't blame her for being afraid of that. In a world filled to the brim with dissapointing men, her was, how could she think I'd have any amount of success?

That's a tough end to be on when you're not a complete asshole. I mean, shit, I'm not one of those guys. Of course its going to hurt to get treated like one.

Is confusing.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It is confusing. People are confusing. But sometimes it helps to know that their issues may, simply, make you a bad match.

I have dated/married so many chronically under/unemployed men that I just won't consider a guy who isn't working full time anymore, unless he's in school full time. I just won't. I'm sure I've missed out on some great guys, but we weren't a match.

I've had guys decide to quit dating me for reasons that seemed really trivial, but you know... it doesn't matter. It just doesn't. We weren't a match.

Sometimes you don't make that decision early enough, and you don't find out until after you've made a commitment. But people's damage is their damage, and it makes it easier when you recognize that it's not really about you, it's about them.

[Salty]

SENTIENT BAGS OF CHEMICALS ARE STUPID.



Thing would be easier if we breathed ammonia, I'll bet.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

Oooh! I'm crazy right now so I know this one!

Crazy people crave things that their brain will reward them for, but most brains are wired to reward you for dumb shit. The less crazy you are, the better you can be about choosing which rewards to seek out, but as your mental health spirals down the drain it becomes more and more difficult to turn down a potential release of happy chemicals, no matter how short-lived.

Brains don't reward you for being in a stable long-term relationship. No, what they give you the good shit for is NEW relationships. So crazy people have a lot of trouble with their heads saying "HEY LET'S RUN AWAY AND GO FIND SOME OTHER PERSON AND MAKE THEM LIKE US AND THEN I'LL TOTALLY GIVE YOU SOME DOPAMINE AGAIN NO THIS TIME REALLY I SWEAR YOU'LL SEE" and you're like "shut up, douchebag brain, nobody likes you."

Crazy people will go WAY THE FUCK out of their way to earn positive regard from near strangers, but have no patience for the people closest to them. That's because their brains aren't feeding them delicious chemical soup when they get praise from close friends, spouses, or family. "THOSE GUYS TOTALLY HAVE TO LIKE US, DON'T LISTEN TO THEM, HEY HOW ABOUT I TELL YOU AGAIN ABOUT ALL THE THINGS THAT YOU SUCK AT? REMEMBER THAT TIME..."

So, yeah, being in a marriage while crazy is really difficult. Being in a marriage if you're NOT crazy is hard, because a lot of the same stuff is playing out, you just happen to be in a better position to deal with the fact that your brain wants you to be a dick to people you know and nice to strangers. It's about novelty seeking, it isn't about the person you're with.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Oooh! I'm crazy right now so I know this one!

Crazy people crave things that their brain will reward them for, but most brains are wired to reward you for dumb shit. The less crazy you are, the better you can be about choosing which rewards to seek out, but as your mental health spirals down the drain it becomes more and more difficult to turn down a potential release of happy chemicals, no matter how short-lived.

Brains don't reward you for being in a stable long-term relationship. No, what they give you the good shit for is NEW relationships. So crazy people have a lot of trouble with their heads saying "HEY LET'S RUN AWAY AND GO FIND SOME OTHER PERSON AND MAKE THEM LIKE US AND THEN I'LL TOTALLY GIVE YOU SOME DOPAMINE AGAIN NO THIS TIME REALLY I SWEAR YOU'LL SEE" and you're like "shut up, douchebag brain, nobody likes you."

Crazy people will go WAY THE FUCK out of their way to earn positive regard from near strangers, but have no patience for the people closest to them. That's because their brains aren't feeding them delicious chemical soup when they get praise from close friends, spouses, or family. "THOSE GUYS TOTALLY HAVE TO LIKE US, DON'T LISTEN TO THEM, HEY HOW ABOUT I TELL YOU AGAIN ABOUT ALL THE THINGS THAT YOU SUCK AT? REMEMBER THAT TIME..."

So, yeah, being in a marriage while crazy is really difficult. Being in a marriage if you're NOT crazy is hard, because a lot of the same stuff is playing out, you just happen to be in a better position to deal with the fact that your brain wants you to be a dick to people you know and nice to strangers. It's about novelty seeking, it isn't about the person you're with.

That's a really clear explanation. Thanks.

[LMNO]

No sarcasm, I agree. That makes a lot of sense.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

My house is full of chocolate and spicy food right now. Stupid brain thinks it can get the best of me...