Machete Terror? '

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

How the fuck are guns relevant to a discussion about an incident in the UK?

America is NOT the world...

jeez

The UK banned guns, now people have to do each other in manually?
You're right, off-topic.

Stop being a douche.

Guns are irrelevant to this discussion.

Pretty much.

[Cain]

I need an adult in government to tell me if this was terrorism or not:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/02/birmingham-murder-racially-motivated-police

A 75-year-old man stabbed to death yards from his home may have been targeted in a racially motivated attack, according to police.

Mohammed Saleem, who used a walking stick, was stabbed three times in the back as he returned home from prayers at his local mosque in Small Heath, Birmingham, on Monday night.

The blows were struck with such violence they penetrated to the front of his body.

The father of seven also had no defensive wounds in what has been described as a swift, vicious and cowardly attack by the man leading the murder investigation, Detective Superintendent Mark Payne of West Midlands police.

Officers want to trace a white man, aged 25-32, of medium height and build, spotted on CCTV footage running near the scene of the attack around the time it happened, just before 10.30pm.

Police also want to trace a seven-seat people carrier captured on CCTV, driving near the mosque with the two male occupants, both white and in their 30s, who are considered "significant witnesses".

In an emotional family appeal on Thursday, two of Saleem's daughters, Shazia Khan, 45, and Nazia Maqsood, 44, called for the attackers to hand themselves in. They tearfully described their father as a "widely respected member of the community" and "much-loved".

Payne said the possibility it was a racially motivated attack was "a significant line of inquiry" and a large number of detectives were working on the case. "To the attacker I say we will find you and we will bring you to justice," he added.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

I need an adult in government to tell me if this was terrorism or not:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/02/birmingham-murder-racially-motivated-police

A 75-year-old man stabbed to death yards from his home may have been targeted in a racially motivated attack, according to police.

Mohammed Saleem, who used a walking stick, was stabbed three times in the back as he returned home from prayers at his local mosque in Small Heath, Birmingham, on Monday night.

The blows were struck with such violence they penetrated to the front of his body.

The father of seven also had no defensive wounds in what has been described as a swift, vicious and cowardly attack by the man leading the murder investigation, Detective Superintendent Mark Payne of West Midlands police.

Officers want to trace a white man, aged 25-32, of medium height and build, spotted on CCTV footage running near the scene of the attack around the time it happened, just before 10.30pm.

Police also want to trace a seven-seat people carrier captured on CCTV, driving near the mosque with the two male occupants, both white and in their 30s, who are considered "significant witnesses".

In an emotional family appeal on Thursday, two of Saleem's daughters, Shazia Khan, 45, and Nazia Maqsood, 44, called for the attackers to hand themselves in. They tearfully described their father as a "widely respected member of the community" and "much-loved".

Payne said the possibility it was a racially motivated attack was "a significant line of inquiry" and a large number of detectives were working on the case. "To the attacker I say we will find you and we will bring you to justice," he added.

fuck. I'd heard about that one through the grapevine.

[Trivial]

Blah, my facebook feed is all about how if this happened in the US the guy would be alive because guns fuck yeah.

As if stabbings don't happen here. 

*edit*

I should have noted *in public* since that was the point made in the posts, I should have screen capped the derp, but oddly all those posts are gone.    I'm also not blocked, so that's new.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I need an adult in government to tell me if this was terrorism or not:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/02/birmingham-murder-racially-motivated-police

A 75-year-old man stabbed to death yards from his home may have been targeted in a racially motivated attack, according to police.

Mohammed Saleem, who used a walking stick, was stabbed three times in the back as he returned home from prayers at his local mosque in Small Heath, Birmingham, on Monday night.

The blows were struck with such violence they penetrated to the front of his body.

The father of seven also had no defensive wounds in what has been described as a swift, vicious and cowardly attack by the man leading the murder investigation, Detective Superintendent Mark Payne of West Midlands police.

Officers want to trace a white man, aged 25-32, of medium height and build, spotted on CCTV footage running near the scene of the attack around the time it happened, just before 10.30pm.

Police also want to trace a seven-seat people carrier captured on CCTV, driving near the mosque with the two male occupants, both white and in their 30s, who are considered "significant witnesses".

In an emotional family appeal on Thursday, two of Saleem's daughters, Shazia Khan, 45, and Nazia Maqsood, 44, called for the attackers to hand themselves in. They tearfully described their father as a "widely respected member of the community" and "much-loved".

Payne said the possibility it was a racially motivated attack was "a significant line of inquiry" and a large number of detectives were working on the case. "To the attacker I say we will find you and we will bring you to justice," he added.

No, Cain, terrorism is only when brown people do it to white people, not the other way around.

[Cain]

This trial is going to be a clusterfuck.

The press is airing videos of the attack at an alarming rate, which is going to mean finding jurists who haven't seen the footage nearly impossible.

John Reid is now blubbering about how the Communications Data Bill (aka "All Your Data Are Belong to Us" bill) could have prevented this though, typically, he fails to mention how.  The fact they were already on the security service radar does rather undermine his position....like with the American lists of "people of interest", the problem isn't putting ever more people onto a system, it's refining who actually deserves to be on the list and eliminating false positives.

Eric Pickles has been running around defending the security services...well, waddling around.  Exercise isn't really his thing:

Mr Pickles told BBC Breakfast: "Peers and MPs will do a thorough investigation in terms of what the security forces knew but I've seen experts on security explaining how difficult it is in a free society to be able to control everyone."

Of course, this argument will be disregarded once the Data Communications Bill is reintroduced to Parliament.  It's a cynical argument, deployed to defend the security serves for their failure in this regard.  Precisely how much blame lies with them does remain to be seen, but the facts are that they knew of these two men, but were unable to discern their intent.

Two additional people were arrested on conspiracy to murder, and are being held at a South London police station.  Press is being very quiet about that one, only a byline in the Guardian's feeds yesterday.

Islamphobic violence is spiking.  According to the publically available date, there were 38 reported incidents on Wednesday, where as the daily average of reported incidents is 4.  Beyond this, a large body of intimidating threats are coming out of far right groups, with threats to burn down mosques being a daily occurence.  The address of Fiyaz Mughal, of the inter-faith group Faith Matters, has been published on Twitter, alongside invitations to shoot him.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Well, you know, erosion of civilization etc etc.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22664468

[Left]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22664468

Seems logical enough that they'd want to try to recruit the guy.

...like with the American lists of "people of interest", the problem isn't putting ever more people onto a system, it's refining who actually deserves to be on the list and eliminating false positives.

...Very hard to do.
I honestly wonder if these watch lists are just security theater.
Like a lot of what the TSA does.  (and I do, for that matter)

John Reid is now blubbering about how the Communications Data Bill (aka "All Your Data Are Belong to Us" bill) could have prevented this though, typically, he fails to mention how.

Probably the same way they'd charge you for releasing videos capturing officialdom's misconduct?
Gah.

Precisely how much blame lies with them does remain to be seen, but the facts are that they knew of these two men, but were unable to discern their intent.

Back when I was an anarcho-syndicalist, I vaguely remember reading about how to operate a terror cell. 
This, whozit that's slipped my mind, observed that you MUST not inform anyone unnecessary to carrying out any illegal activity.  If you tell them, they are then an accessory and keeping their mouths shut can result in a perjury charge.

I think 9-11 could have been stopped, but that was a BIG plot. 
This was something the two attackers worked out between themselves, and I imagine they did it face-to-face in some random public locale that they chose b/c it likely wasn't bugged.
I think asking your police to stop something like this is asking the impossible.

[Junkenstein]

These guys doing it right:

A mosque has been praised for serving tea and biscuits to English Defence League supporters after the far-right group arranged a demonstration there.

About six people turned up to protest at the mosque in Bull Lane, York, on Sunday and were invited inside to play football with worshippers.

More than 100 supporters of the mosque had gone there after learning of the planned EDL protest.

Archbishop of York Dr John Sentamu said the mosque's response was "fantastic".

He said: "Tea, biscuits, and football are a great and typically Yorkshire combination when it comes to disarming hostile and extremist views."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-22689552

The rest of the article has a couple of back handed compliments but the original action was pure class.

[EK WAFFLR]

These guys doing it right:

A mosque has been praised for serving tea and biscuits to English Defence League supporters after the far-right group arranged a demonstration there.

About six people turned up to protest at the mosque in Bull Lane, York, on Sunday and were invited inside to play football with worshippers.

More than 100 supporters of the mosque had gone there after learning of the planned EDL protest.

Archbishop of York Dr John Sentamu said the mosque's response was "fantastic".

He said: "Tea, biscuits, and football are a great and typically Yorkshire combination when it comes to disarming hostile and extremist views."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-22689552

The rest of the article has a couple of back handed compliments but the original action was pure class.

That's beautiful.

[Cain]

Oh dear.

Looks like Michael Adebolajo was picked up by Kenyan authorities, and then tortured at the behest of British intelligence, who later harassed him when he returned to the UK to work for them as an informant:

http://www.nafeezahmed.com/2013/05/exclusive-woolwich-suspect-tortured-at.html

A letter to the UK Parliament's Intelligence and Security Committee by a childhood friend of one of the Woolwich attackers claims that the suspect was subjected to "systematic torture and sexual abuse" by Kenyan troops on behalf of Britain's security services.

The letter - exclusive excerpts of which are quoted below - is authored by Ibrahim Hassan, otherwise known as "Abu Nusaybah", who was interviewed by Richard Watson on BBC Newsnight claiming that MI5 had been harassing Woolwich suspect Michael "Mujahid" Adebolajo to join the agency as an informant six months ago. Hassan was arrested by Metropolitan Police under the Terrorism Act 2000 immediately after his BBC interview, and is currently in custody at Southwark Police Station.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22664468

In his Newsnight interview, Abu Nusaybah said he thought "a change" had taken place in his friend after a trip to Kenya last year.

He said Mr Adebolajo had told him he travelled there "to study", but instead, was part of a group rounded up by "Kenyan troops" and interrogated in a prison cell.

During his detention he said he was "beaten quite badly", Abu Nusaybah said, and in his opinion, his friend had also been subjected to sexual abuse, although he was too "ashamed" to say exactly what happened.

After this, he became withdrawn "and less talkative - he wasn't his bubbly self", Abu Nusaybah said, adding: "His mind was somewhere else."

He also said Mr Adebolajo was "stopped" upon his return to the UK from Kenya and was later "followed up by MI5" who were "knocking on his door".

He was "basically being harassed", Abu Nusaybah said.

He added: "His wording was, 'They are bugging me - they won't leave me alone.'

"Initially they wanted to ask him if he knew certain individuals.

"But after him saying that he didn't know these individuals, what he said was they asked him if he would be interested in working for them.

"He was explicit in that he refused to work for them but he did confirm he didn't know the individuals."

Abu Nusaybah was arrested at the BBC after giving the interview.

Details of the charges against him can be read here.

Also worth noting that Adebolajo was a member of the most current incarnation of Al Muhajiroun - I believe the name is now Izhar Ud-Deen-il-Haq.  According to former US military intelligence officer John Loftus, Al Muhajiroun was a MI6 front organization, and its three founding members (Omar Bakri, Abu Hamza, and Haroon Rashid Aswat) were informants for the agency, and had used them to recruit for covert wars in the Balkans.  Bakri also acted as an informant for the security services on more than a few occasions.

As The Guardian puts it:

The 28-year-old was a regular at the al-Muhajiroun stall outside the HSBC branch on Woolwich high street, handing out extremist literature, and one witness said he was recently seen outside Plumstead community centre encouraging an audience to go to Syria to fight.

For the last eight years his activities have been such that he featured in several counter-terrorist investigations, always as a peripheral figure and not the central subject of the inquiry. Sources said there was nothing in his activities which indicated that he might carry out such an attack.

[Cain]

Also worth noting:  one in five people convicted of terrorist offences in the UK in the last decade has been a member of, or associated with, al-Muhajiroun.

[Junkenstein]

Ah fuck.

Well this adds another layer of shitstorm to any trial. Guess this helps explain some of the secret court shenanigans over the past few years too. If it's a known possibility, it'd be mad not to try and cover your arse in a worst case situation.

[EK WAFFLR]

I'd never even heard of al-Muhajiroun before. Interesting stuff, Cain!