Thread is now about Holist.

[Salty]

Cruel?  I am his king.  I am a wise and benevolent ruler.  Hell, I even give him something to rage against, as can be plainly seen in his last post.  I mean, shit, we have a discussion about MUSIC, and that's sufficient grounds for him to spazz the hell out and then start making a diagnosis of my mental and emotional state, right?  Hell, you can't get that level of froth on fucking FACEBOOK, talking to TEABAGGERS.

I am here because Holist and people like Holist need me.  I am a Holy Man™, and I give them what they need.

I read this as follows: "holist, if you stay here and talk to other people while avoiding me, you'll just admit defeat and prove that you need me in your sorry little life". Which is a subtle and passive agressive way of telling me to fuck off."

While you are entitled to your opinion, and certainly free to call me paranoid or whatever else you wish on account of the above interpretation, I simply wish to mention that, luckily, I am not obliged to share your opinion, and I most emphatically don't. Keep having fun!

Your reading comprehension is fucked.

[Lord Cataplanga]

I'm still not seeing the connection between "authenticity is subjective" and "coercion and oppression are ok."

If you're still lurking, I would like to request that you expand on that some more.

I second this.
I'm still convinced that this was a communication failure, and I'm very interested in what he was really trying to say.

He was - as far as I can tell, and I could be wrong - trying to say "It's too underground for you" without actually saying "It's too underground for you".

Music is one of those subjects that certain people take as a territorial thing.

Well yes, you could take advice and summaries from the uncomprehending... or you could just wait for the real thing. 

Should we? Be waiting for the real thing, I mean.
I'm very interested in what you and Roger have to say. Too bad it seems like you can't say those things to each other, though.

[Lord Cataplanga]

I think Roger is upset that we have been discussing for several pages something that in his opinion shouldn't have taken more space than a footnote.

Maybe you can explain in a new thread your ideas about authenticity in art, and how it relates to legitimacy in governments or whatever (I'm reminded of Sabina's ideas in The Unbearable Lightness of Being, is that what you meant?).

Feel free to explain using examples from history, or anecdotes from your own experiences. That should make it easier to understand what you are talking about even if we don't agree on the definition of "authentic".

[Dildo Argentino]

I'm still not seeing the connection between "authenticity is subjective" and "coercion and oppression are ok."

If you're still lurking, I would like to request that you expand on that some more.

OKAY. SO! What I am going to do here is advance a tentative description of my Discordia, a.k.a the world according to holist. As expressing one's general attitude to life and surrounding areas is notoriously difficult and fraught with misunderstanding, I would like it to be handled as such.

I think that some cultures are better than others. Having trained in philosophy, I have acquired the nasty habit of preferring a certain degree of consistency among my beliefs... while I have long realised that striving for a completely consistent world-view is about as futile as trying to keep my desk and its vicinity tidy all the time, every now and then I get the urge to reduce the chaos somewhat, at least to a workable level, in both realms.

Now if I want to be able to say that some cultures are superior to others (for instance: cultures that condone painful and crippling ritual mutilation are worse than those that don't; cultures that engage in compulsory and coercive indoctrination of the young - usually, but incorrectly termed 'education' - are worse than those that don't; cultures that display a curious, imaginative and creative attitude towards novelty are better than those that approach the unknown with a suspicious, defensive and trigger-happy attitude; cultures with approximate gender equality are better than those with massive gender inequality, etc.), I would prefer to be able to say at least something untrivial about why (trivial would be, to maintain the parallel with the concept of authenticity in the context of music, saying that they are better because I prefer them, or that they are better because many people prefer them). And I have this desire to be able to justify my preference because I don't want to be left in the position of having to nod and move on when the female circumscriber, the opressively authoritarian, the hostile and defensive or the sexist says: "well you may prefer those things, but I prefer these, and there's no arguing about preferences".

So I do this (justify my choices, that is) by stating my creed: I believe that there are certain types of action, certain values, certain attitudes that are positive from the perspective of the individual, no matter what the culture (and they remain the truly positive human attitudes, even if there are people who are passionately opposed to them, or to make an even more radical philosophical claim: they would remain the truly positive human attitudes even if nobody believed them any more. Which, in my book, would be humanity taking a massive turn for the worse).

Among these types of action, values, attitudes, there are self-knowledge, authenticity, autonomy, curiosity, conviviality, creativity, engagement, emotional self-reliance and self-regulation, and the list, of course, goes on.

Authenticity, in particular, " from Greek authentikos "original, genuine, principal," from authentes "one acting on one's own authority," from autos "self" (see auto-) + hentes "doer, being," (from the Online Etymology Dictionary) is a quality of informed self-awareness and self-determination that has to do with self-knowledge, realistic self-assessment, acceptance of the shadow (Jung), and not playing roles (except in creative and free play,which is fine).

Cultures that value authenticity and encourage their inhabitants to improve in that department are preferable (better places to live) to those that punish authenticity and encourage their inhabitants to surrender control of their lives to forces outside themselves.

If I give up the concept of authenticity as meaningless because people fail to agree about it (as if they ever agreed about anything!) - all of this line is lost. Not to mention the line between the drossest crap produced by corporations for profit or deluded individuals because they are completely wrong about the nature of their musical talent - and decent music.

End Of Message

[Dildo Argentino]

Yeah, it's kind of a waste. But you can't really have discourse with someone who can't separate their ego from their argument, because if you tear apart their argument they feel like you're tearing apart them, personally.

I think you misconstrue me entirely. It's a pity.

[Dildo Argentino]

Should we? Be waiting for the real thing, I mean.
I'm very interested in what you and Roger have to say. Too bad it seems like you can't say those things to each other, though.

I'd be perfectly happy with a split.

[Don Coyote]

Yeah, it's kind of a waste. But you can't really have discourse with someone who can't separate their ego from their argument, because if you tear apart their argument they feel like you're tearing apart them, personally.

I think you misconstrue me entirely. It's a pity.

When you actually want someone who might be predisposed to disregard your point of view it helps to excise your condescension of them.

[Dildo Argentino]

Yeah, it's kind of a waste. But you can't really have discourse with someone who can't separate their ego from their argument, because if you tear apart their argument they feel like you're tearing apart them, personally.

I think you misconstrue me entirely. It's a pity.

When you actually want someone who might be predisposed to disregard your point of view it helps to excise your condescension of them.

I agree.

But.

Firstly, I am able to separate ego from argument (losing arguments is a skill I studied full-time for four years, and after initial difficulties I did quite well), but I think my argument (my point, really) hasn't even been given a fair hearing. It was distorted, simplified and then that strawman was shot down and set on fire. It's all fine exhorting me to express myself better, but the setup is rigged and you know, if someone is hell bent on taking you for a moron, there's little you can do. Incidentally, I didn't write that with a condescending tone at all. It's a pity, as in I am sorry to see it happen, but it happens, and I am powerless to stop it. Which is fine. But a pity.

Secondly, I would like to know how you handle this sort of situation. Or what evidence you have to offer that this is not one of those situations.

[Don Coyote]

Yeah, it's kind of a waste. But you can't really have discourse with someone who can't separate their ego from their argument, because if you tear apart their argument they feel like you're tearing apart them, personally.

I think you misconstrue me entirely. It's a pity.

When you actually want someone who might be predisposed to disregard your point of view it helps to excise your condescension of them.

I agree.

But.

Firstly, I am able to separate ego from argument (losing arguments is a skill I studied full-time for four years, and after initial difficulties I did quite well), but I think my argument (my point, really) hasn't even been given a fair hearing. It was distorted, simplified and then that strawman was shot down and set on fire. It's all fine exhorting me to express myself better, but the setup is rigged and you know, if someone is hell bent on taking you for a moron, there's little you can do. Incidentally, I didn't write that with a condescending tone at all. It's a pity, as in I am sorry to see it happen, but it happens, and I am powerless to stop it. Which is fine. But a pity.

Secondly, I would like to know how you handle this sort of situation. Or what evidence you have to offer that this is not one of those situations.

Just FYI (for your information) you just did it again with the condescension.
More to point, I've found myself less inclined to engage you in discussion because you seem to be firmly entrenched in this idea that certain people here, for example Roger, are predisposed to just shit all over you in anyway they can.

[Dildo Argentino]

Just FYI (for your information) you just did it again with the condescension.

Now that's a bit rich. 

More to point, I've found myself less inclined to engage you in discussion because you seem to be firmly entrenched in this idea that certain people here, for example Roger, are predisposed to just shit all over you in anyway they can.

You know, I would change the wording a bit, replace 'for example' by 'primarily', but apart from that, that is indeed what I think. The "firmly entrenched' may be a clever way of implying but not actually saying I am wrong (then again, it may not be, that's what clever about it), but I am not wrong. And if that stops you from talking to me, well, I'll live.

[Demolition Squid]

Tone is a difficult thing to convey in text... but, I don't have a horse in this race, and really, Holist, you are coming across as very condescending. It might not be deliberate, but trust me, its there.

[Dildo Argentino]

Tone is a difficult thing to convey in text... but, I don't have a horse in this race, and really, Holist, you are coming across as very condescending. It might not be deliberate, but trust me, its there.

Well I don't know. Maybe to some extent it is there. Maybe, to some extent, it should be there, I thought it was okay to lose your rag around here, and the kind of hostility I keep falling victim to seems repetitive and just, I don't know, puerile. But I think I probably come off more condescending than I want to be, or my attempts at sarcasm are read as being condescending, as a result of speaking English as a second language. Try imagining me with an earnest Wilhelm Reichian glint of madness and that accent, as in this priceless clip: "http://blog.holist.hu/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Wilhelm_Reich_at_Orgonon_April_3rd_1952.mp3" And actually, he came off really condescending when he was just being earnest. Not that I wish to compare myself to the incomparable professor.

[Don Coyote]

Tone is a difficult thing to convey in text... but, I don't have a horse in this race, and really, Holist, you are coming across as very condescending. It might not be deliberate, but trust me, its there.

Well I don't know. Maybe to some extent it is there. Maybe, to some extent, it should be there, I thought it was okay to lose your rag around here, and the kind of hostility I keep falling victim to seems repetitive and just, I don't know, puerile. But I think I probably come off more condescending than I want to be, or my attempts at sarcasm are read as being condescending, as a result of speaking English as a second language. Try imagining me with an earnest Wilhelm Reichian glint of madness and that accent, as in this priceless clip: "http://blog.holist.hu/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Wilhelm_Reich_at_Orgonon_April_3rd_1952.mp3" And actually, he came off really condescending when he was just being earnest. Not that I wish to compare myself to the incomparable professor.

Yo dude, if a person who is a native speaker and reader of the language with which you are communicating in has pointed out that you are being condescending in your communications then there is a very real chance that you are in fact being condescending, which by the way are still persisting in being.  As it is I was at one point long ago willing to give you the benefit of the doubt due some language barrier, however, I find myself far less likely to believe that you are unaware of the fact that you are being condescending because people are not agreeing with your stance. But just in-case that there is in fact some language barrier present, despite the indications that you are fluent enough in English and intelligent enough to have some grasp on the intent behind your words, I shall make it as clear as I possibly can to you that when you throw in "It's a pity" with your statements, you are implying that you feel sorry that the person(s) you are addressing are just not quite smart enough to see your point of view in the proper light, that if only they were as enlightened, studied or intelligent enough that your carefully worded arguments in support of the truth that there is some music that is "authentic" and others that is not, and that you are especially qualified to point out which is which, they would immediately come to your side of the argument. That in there lies the particular instance of your condescension with regards to this discussion.  Now onto something else, with your intimations that you are especially trained to remove your ego from the argument despite you tossing a wobbler when you felt that you were being unfairly treated in this discussion, without referencing another more telling discussion in which is very clear that you are unable to divorce your ego or sense of self worth from your position on a topic, when had you just literately walked away for a breather instead of sharing that you were going to

Well fuck this for a game of billiards. I'm out.

thus making it quite apparent that you have some kind of butthurt because we were disagreeing with you. I had infact intended to more carefully re-read your points but was prevented because, well fuck me, I had to devote my attentions to actually learning about how art and literature are and have been critiqued throughout history with regards to the western literary and artistic traditions. I still do not see any merit in going over your original points because it seems to me that you are just nursing the butthurt because people are disagreeing with you and have put forth reasons that you may be choosing to create a definition of what is "real music" that arbitrarily favors the kind of music you prefer to listen to.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Your obvious man-crush for me is a little creepy. 

Just sayin.

I prefer my men filling a suit properly.

Did he seriously just try to homo-shame you, there? Wow.

[Don Coyote]

Your obvious man-crush for me is a little creepy. 

Just sayin.

I prefer my men filling a suit properly.

Did he seriously just try to homo-shame you, there? Wow.

Well I mean a man that likes other men is basically a woman. Right?