Random Rant re: Religion

[Zurtok Khan]

Hrrm, I agree with some of this (particularly the bit about prayer, but I think it's a matter of perspective on that one...if you assume humans are under God then they need prayer, if you assume humans function without God(s), or are equal/the same as God(s) they don't need it...).  But, what I don't is covered elsewhere.

Just really wanted to say that YES, Mother T was a cunt.

But, have you ever heard of anyone woh managed to get stuff done that WASN'T a cunt to the majority of the human race?

[Cain]

HEY!

Thats my justification!  Give it back!

[East Coast Hustle]

also, what does "getting shit done" have to do wth mother teresa? what did she ever get done that benefitted anyone besides her church and herself?

[Zurtok Khan]

Err...she gave stuff to poor people, probably only making their circumstances ultimately worse in the end?

Also, self interest is valid interest.

[Cain]

She also refused to help those of other faiths, making her one evil bitch.

[Random Probability]

We seem to agree, then it is settled.  Not even those whom are propped up by their own religions are everything they are claimed to be.  I would say this fact more than any other proves my point about religion.  The evidence is even more damning since it has been spewed out by the church itself, exposing them for what they truly are: Liars.

We, the prosecution, rest our case.

(*making an allusion here to the works of W. Winwood Reade)

[Zurtok Khan]

Err, maybe I missed a step?

How do those people's actions show that the whole system is corrupt?

[Random Probability]

Err, maybe I missed a step?

How do those people's actions show that the whole system is corrupt?

Taking the example of Mother Theresa, she was presented as an icon of Catholic ideals.  An example of saintly action and purity.  In reality she was a crackpot loon who thought it was good for the poor to suffer miserably and even told a woman dying of cancer that her pain was "Jesus kissing her".

The point to all this is that this dishonesty is the very best the Catholic church has to offer.  Additionally, this fundamental dishonest can be traced to the mindset of the powers that be within the church.  If the source of such hate and cruelty is a small power cabal then the church is hopelessly corrupt.  If these horrible deeds are the result of True Belief(tm) then the core principles of the church are evil.

Either way, it proves that Christianity is teh fucked.

[Zurtok Khan]

Err, perhaps we should say that Christianity as it is practiced by the vast majority of the demoninations out there are fucked?

I have no problem with what Jesus actually said.  The some people choose to interpret it is a whole 'nother issue.

I propose that there is no problem with religion, per se, as most religions have the same message.  I think the problem is the abuse they undergo at the hands of some people.  But, the sorts of people who do bad things in the name of religion would find do them anyway, simply because it's in their *natures to do.

*Not neccisarily that they are genetically predisposed to evil, though that's possible, if you think about it.  Nature as in the habits they and other people have formed in their lives....err, you get it, right?

[East Coast Hustle]

religion IS a symptom of human nature's predilection to manipulate and exploit weaker beings.

otherwise, there wouldn't BE any religions, just a bunch of spiritual people doing their own thing.

[Random Probability]

I don't follow your logic, Zurtok.  Are you suggesting that we should judge the whole of a thing based on the insignificant, politically powerless minority of adherents who might actually not be fucked?

More to the point, I think we find that the overwhelming majority of the adherents of any religion are fucked to begin with since they follow doctrines that really aren't worth following.  I find nothing in the alleged teachings of Jesus that I didn't learn on my own in kindergarten.  If someone missed these lessons then, I hardly think a book such as the Christian Bible is going to be any more successful at educating them.  Let's face it, some people are just plain stupid.

Another flaw in your argument which I should like to point out is that you make the assumption that the "virtues" of Religion X to which your hypothetical "unfucked" individuals belong are actually virtuous.  While it is laudable that they somehow managed to attain the level of morality and ethics, as well as the spiritual well being, which their brand of religion teaches, I still call those morals and ethics into question.

Perhaps that is the topic of another rant/discussion....  What are good morals and ethics?  Also, what is so good about them?

[Zurtok Khan]

First, I quite realize the logical inconsistancy there, I put it out there as a thinking point, not much more.  But, it should be considered that both the arguement from generality and the biased sample are logical fallacies.  So, we're technically both using one.  Of course, just because we're using one doesn't exclude the possibility of being right...but if we're talking logic...

Second, I find that most religions have doctrines that I agree with.  But, it all depends on what we're personally looking for.  Somehow I think we're at different points in our lives.  I remember in dance a particular saying that we used every once in awhile, "Beginners want to practice advanced steps.  Advanced Dancers want to practice expert steps.  Experts practice the basics."  If you want to be a good person, there are no extraspecial things to practice.

Third, that's a good point.  And, I have no fucking clue what good virtues are at all.