Moral cohesion and the Discordian Society

[That One Guy]

I think that's 90% of the point Rata - that unifying of the Erisians (a camp I myself tend to be in more often than not even though I lean towards the skeptic side of things regarding the occult), the Discordians, the Subgenii, and the Illuminati into one force that is vastly more capable of accomplishing things than any one section might be singly.

We're all tools, so let's get the whole damn toolbox together to be able to wreak mass-havok/change. We can do a lot more with a wide variety of tools than we can with just a few after all.

[Triple Zero]

I'm not sure how clear it is when we do it, but the point isn't that silly non-sequitors have no place, it's that it's incredibly boring when someone rehashes 40-year-old non sequitors on a board that's heard them 10,000 times.


If you notice, many of the posters here are no strangers to abject sillyness.  But we try to do 2 things, usually:

1. Make them original (or riff on a still-new meme).

2. Balance them with more substantative content.


There are, of course exceptions to this.


Also, when I go Discordian somwhere new, I have nothing against using the Old Phrases, because they seem to have some weight.  But I don't do it here.

It would be like a bunch of Calculus majors continually joking about long division.

but, for example, pestering your friends with the law of fives and the number 23 is a lot of fun, and if you keep it up:
1 - somebody is bound to say: "but that would work for every number", to which you should reply "yes. and this is exactly the point. <blahblah insert more in depth explanation of second half of Lo5s>"
2 - still it's a fun game to play, and the moment when somebody notices for themselves they are seeing more 23s than they'd have expected it serves as a demonstration for the law of fives, reality-grid-filter-magijck-etc thing you explained in step 1.

just to show that it can still be useful for new (or potential) discordians.

it's just that n00bs coming here, and "subtly" working the numbers 5 and 23 into their posts, are totally demonstrating they didn't GET it, at all. the point is not putting the numbers there, or joking that the illuminati did it, the point is that the numbers will be there if you pay enough attention to them.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I'm not sure how clear it is when we do it, but the point isn't that silly non-sequitors have no place, it's that it's incredibly boring when someone rehashes 40-year-old non sequitors on a board that's heard them 10,000 times.


If you notice, many of the posters here are no strangers to abject sillyness.  But we try to do 2 things, usually:

1. Make them original (or riff on a still-new meme).

2. Balance them with more substantative content.


There are, of course exceptions to this.


Also, when I go Discordian somwhere new, I have nothing against using the Old Phrases, because they seem to have some weight.  But I don't do it here.

It would be like a bunch of Calculus majors continually joking about long division.

I understand that LMNO, but when you come to this board, thats not particularly the feel that one gets, if you see what I mean. For new Discordians... they may not yet be Calculus majors, they may be math majors and still find long division pretty damn funny.

So using them as our distraction unit might work quite well... even with a few of us who may be less enamored with the trappings helping mold the newest recruits. This may be particularly useful, because, if new Discordians are anything like old Discordians, the love of Fnord may me mollified by a chance to actively use the memes as part of a Discordian OMF.

This board is directly connected to the version of the PD that I direct potential recruits to... It may be their very first exposure to the potent meme bombs hidden throughout the book, and they may walk in here hours afterward. Honing the weapon may be more useful than telling them to sod off... that's all I'm saying

[LMNO]

To be honest, if they read any of the "Advice to the n00bs" threads we've stickied, they'd see that the first thing we say is that we've heard it already, so please try something new.

but, for example, pestering your friends with the law of fives and the number 23 is a lot of fun, and if you keep it up:
1 - somebody is bound to say: "but that would work for every number", to which you should reply "yes. and this is exactly the point. <blahblah insert more in depth explanation of second half of Lo5s>"
2 - still it's a fun game to play, and the moment when somebody notices for themselves they are seeing more 23s than they'd have expected it serves as a demonstration for the law of fives, reality-grid-filter-magijck-etc thing you explained in step 1.

just to show that it can still be useful for new (or potential) discordians.

it's just that n00bs coming here, and "subtly" working the numbers 5 and 23 into their posts, are totally demonstrating they didn't GET it, at all. the point is not putting the numbers there, or joking that the illuminati did it, the point is that the numbers will be there if you pay enough attention to them.

Yes, for friends that don't know about Discordia.  But I ask, when DC and Cram and TOG and Payne met up in Boston last weekend, how much of the conversation was about the Law of Fives or the Pentabarf?  I'm sure there were a few "Hail Eris"s here and there, but as far as spending time talking about that stuff, I doubt it.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

To be honest, if they read any of the "Advice to the n00bs" threads we've stickied, they'd see that the first thing we say is that we've heard it already, so please try something new.

but, for example, pestering your friends with the law of fives and the number 23 is a lot of fun, and if you keep it up:
1 - somebody is bound to say: "but that would work for every number", to which you should reply "yes. and this is exactly the point. <blahblah insert more in depth explanation of second half of Lo5s>"
2 - still it's a fun game to play, and the moment when somebody notices for themselves they are seeing more 23s than they'd have expected it serves as a demonstration for the law of fives, reality-grid-filter-magijck-etc thing you explained in step 1.

just to show that it can still be useful for new (or potential) discordians.

it's just that n00bs coming here, and "subtly" working the numbers 5 and 23 into their posts, are totally demonstrating they didn't GET it, at all. the point is not putting the numbers there, or joking that the illuminati did it, the point is that the numbers will be there if you pay enough attention to them.

Yes, for friends that don't know about Discordia.  But I ask, when DC and Cram and TOG and Payne met up in Boston last weekend, how much of the conversation was about the Law of Fives or the Pentabarf?  I'm sure there were a few "Hail Eris"s here and there, but as far as spending time talking about that stuff, I doubt it.

I understand what you're saying. There's no NEED for the old memes, but then there's no need to bitchslap some newbie for using them.

Think of it like this, if we had a secret society with 'grades' or 'degrees'. Sure a 23rd degree Discordian would have a much better grasp of the secrets of the society, when speaking with other 23rd degree Discordians, he probably wouldn't need to discuss the first or third degree metaphors.

However, that doesn't mean that a 1st or 3rd degree Discordian shouldn't be using the metaphor....

We don't need to use the metaphors, because we've learned the model that they're playing with. Some people post here who don't yet differentiate between the entry model and the rest... but they'll learn (I think) after all, we did. I think instead of actively discouraging the n00bs with "We've heard it before, come up with something new", maybe we could be a bit more manipulati... err helpful

By no means should you, me, Cram and TOG run around looking for 23s (unless we want to)... but we need not slam some other poor POEE that does. We can use them as our front lines, our skirmish units, our suicide meme-bombers.

Actively encouraging the old metaphor, while subtly pulling the ones that think into new metaphors might be a good application of Cain's OP.

[LMNO]

Rat, I appreciate where you're coming from, and I've seen two separate kinds of n00b approaches:

Approach 1. "Hey, anyone actually try out this "Law of Fives" thing?  It's pretty awesome.  Did you know if you add the date of my birth togetehr you get 23?  Cool!"

General Reply: "You do know about the other, unwritten, half of the law, right?"  Which generally expands to the Prover proving what the Thinker thinks.


Approach 2. "Hail Eris!  Mine Pineal Gland got high on LSD and told me to spam  "42" in every single thread on this forum to show y'all how wacky and Discordian I am!"

General Reply: "Fuck off.  Seriously."

[P3nT4gR4m]

I understand what you're saying. There's no NEED for the old memes, but then there's no need to bitchslap some newbie for using them.

Think of it like this, if we had a secret society with 'grades' or 'degrees'. Sure a 23rd degree Discordian would have a much better grasp of the secrets of the society, when speaking with other 23rd degree Discordians, he probably wouldn't need to discuss the first or third degree metaphors.

However, that doesn't mean that a 1st or 3rd degree Discordian shouldn't be using the metaphor....

We don't need to use the metaphors, because we've learned the model that they're playing with. Some people post here who don't yet differentiate between the entry model and the rest... but they'll learn (I think) after all, we did. I think instead of actively discouraging the n00bs with "We've heard it before, come up with something new", maybe we could be a bit more manipulati... err helpful

By no means should you, me, Cram and TOG run around looking for 23s (unless we want to)... but we need not slam some other poor POEE that does. We can use them as our front lines, our skirmish units, our suicide meme-bombers.

Actively encouraging the old metaphor, while subtly pulling the ones that think into new metaphors might be a good application of Cain's OP.

[That One Guy]

This board is directly connected to the version of the PD that I direct potential recruits to... It may be their very first exposure to the potent meme bombs hidden throughout the book, and they may walk in here hours afterward. Honing the weapon may be more useful than telling them to sod off... that's all I'm saying

I just wanted to comment on this a little bit. Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't have come on ANY forum if I had JUST finished my first-ever reading of anything, let alone something that operates on as many levels as the PD. I will readily admit to wandering off on a few Fridays to partake of a Hot Dog in a bun, getting wrapped up in various 23-isms, and tying that in with my interest in Chaos Magick and various other occult things I was reading up on at the time (and still read up on as the mood suits me).

The first time I read the PD I had already read the Schroedinger's Cat trilogy and the Illuminatus! trilogy so I had some exposure to the fact that there are many levels of meaning involved in the PD. What I think the problem is here in the forums is that people, after doing a first reading of the PD, think they "get it", when they might only be "getting" one or two of the levels being shown. I've read the PD at least a dozen times and every time I read it I take something new out of it and have new concepts to digest and new levels to explore. The more the PD is examined over time, the more levels are exposed to the reader.

Those of us here on this forum are generally those that have been ruminating on the concepts for a while, have examined and applied at least a few of the levels the PD exposed us to, and have had time to let the words and concepts become assimilated into our world-views. Someone that has just finished reading the PD hours previously won't have had the time to let the concepts seep in and accumulate, and as such will come into conflict with those that have.

What is important to remember, especially with the new-to-the-PD-concepts folks, is that ALL of us at one time or another (even if it was a very brief time) were making that first conceptual leap of assimilation. It didn't necessarily hit everyone via the "ZOMG23PinealFnord" spewing, but the concepts DID alter all of our reality-tunnels into something that led us all to where we are now and will continue to alter our perceptions going forward. That kick-in-the-teeth spark in the brain I had when I first read the PD was, I'm sure, hardly unique. What I think leads to conflict is when someone that has JUST experienced that for the first time comes here and assumes that everyone else is at the same point, rather than having had years or even decades to assimilate it.

Also, LMNO's two approaches post highlights the kind of things we encounter typically. The first almost always leads to (if nothing else) a decent discussion, and the second invariably leads to massive flames. We HOPE for the first approach, but we usually SEE the second. I personally attempt to follow response 1 at all times, even if it is for someone that uses approach 2, but if the person approaching doesn't want to or isn't able to get beyond the primary PD metaphors (or even acknowlege that they ARE metaphores) then I stand back and let the flames consume them.

I heartily approve of the concept of using the new-to-the-metaphore types as front-liners. However, that shouldn't mean a blind acceptance of anyone that comes along spouting the first couple meme-levels from the PD - that would leave us far too open to infiltration and subversion of OUR objectives from those WE are trying to subvert. While I don't necessarily approve of insta-bashing anyone that comes along spouting the "pinealisms" there DOES need to be some system in place to separate those that understand that there ARE multiple levels (or seem capable of understanding that) from those that get caught up on or are merely puppeting the "pinealisms". The flaming is one way of doing that - one that has evolved apart from this specific forum and been adapted here for just that purpose. Admittedly we probably lose some that might be able, in time, to see more of the levels at work, but part of testing your limits is finding when you've got more to learn.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Conversely

I read the PD, laughed my ass off and came straight here, hoping that someone else 'got' it.

Thing with the PD is it can be enlightening but only if you weren't enlightened by other means before you read it.

PD was a flag in the sand for me. I came here to see if it had worked.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

It's also not our job to "enlighten" anybody, especially if we see more of this cohesion and start seeing larger projects develop.  This group is unique in that it can exist as a set of people who have been around for a while, with its own goals and its own culture, while also accepting new members.  I don't think we should spend much energy (if any at all) on getting noobs graduated through a series of levels and memes and what-not.  Part of the fun of Discordianism is that if you didn't get there (mostly) by yourself, then you never got there.

Besides, if most of the people on this board "Get It," it just means that most of us don't have a clue what Discordianism is going to be about (from a cultural-meme-public relations standpoint) two days from now.  Preparing someone for the future of Discordianism has nothing to do with which memes to spew and which ones to avoid.

Spending too much time on the 23fnord stuff, either for it or against it, is missing the point.  As in parenting: the object is not to teach them which decision to make, but to teach them how to make the decision.  And by the time a person can navigate themselves to a forum on the interwebs, that should be something they already know or are at least capable of teaching themselves.

[Triple Zero]

To be honest, if they read any of the "Advice to the n00bs" threads we've stickied, they'd see that the first thing we say is that we've heard it already, so please try something new.

maybe we should clean those out a bit.

they're like, what 30-50 pages of rambling now?

i can imagine a n00b not really wanting to go through that [yeah the imporant bits are at the start, but they don't know that].

maybe it's a good idea to unsticky those threads, and recompile the important bits into a new thread and sticky that one.

(so also nobody has to worry about any lulzworthy replies being wiped, they just sink to the bottom)

[Cramulus]

When DC and Cram and TOG and Payne met up in Boston last weekend, how much of the conversation was about the Law of Fives or the Pentabarf?

actually we spent all our time talking about your meme bombs.

read: balls

[LMNO]

YOU'VE BEEN TEABAGGED.

[That One Guy]

Yes. Yes we WERE teabagged. It was hilarious 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Rat, I appreciate where you're coming from, and I've seen two separate kinds of n00b approaches:

Approach 1. "Hey, anyone actually try out this "Law of Fives" thing?  It's pretty awesome.  Did you know if you add the date of my birth togetehr you get 23?  Cool!"

General Reply: "You do know about the other, unwritten, half of the law, right?"  Which generally expands to the Prover proving what the Thinker thinks.


Approach 2. "Hail Eris!  Mine Pineal Gland got high on LSD and told me to spam  "42" in every single thread on this forum to show y'all how wacky and Discordian I am!"

General Reply: "Fuck off.  Seriously."

Right... what I'm saying is that Approach Number 1, seems useful for potential recruitment into the Discordian subset (those inserting meme-bombs surreptitiously). Approach number 2, may be useful for us as fodder towards targets.

Example:

We determine to attack, Non-Fluffy pagans on LJ (just an example). We spend about 6 weeks with everyone involved joining the site and in a friendly, quiet way, we join the 'community'. The day we attack, we unleash "Approach Number 2" folks with 23PINEALFNORD or Whatever other memes we want. They are good at being trolls, let them serve Eris in their own way.

We make sure that some of the memes they post have value and then we attack those memes, dissecting them in the forum and compiling them in the minds of our targets. Use our FNORDIAN FOOLS to seed the herb of Distraction. Then harvest, dry and smoke the fruits of Eris.

One of the most important aspects of any guerrilla movement is figuring out how to use ALL of your resources. Even the annoying Pinealist may be a valuable resource in laying siege to greyfaces everywhere.  Particularly if we suck them into new memes of our own devising.

Think of them as sleepers... as Useful Fools... as memetic robots... or whatever other metaphors you can jam in there