Fuck Advertising

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Also, brainwashing happens all the time... to mosbunal of us. At least, that's how it appears to me.

Brainwashing, in modern parlance is usually associated with the CIA or cults. However, that really only covers a subset of techniques used in brainwashing. Brainwashing doesn't require sleep deprivation or drugs or getting ones balls chopped etc.... Those are just shortcuts, quick and dirty brainwashing hacks if you will. The most insidious sorts of brainwashing are the ones that take 20 years to complete and no one ever suspects a thing. Orwellian "newspeak  " is a good example of such things. Our current administration did really well at brainwashing lots of folks post-911, though fortunately it appears that the conditioning is wearing off. Every baby gets brainwashed in its first five years by its own dear Mommy and Daddy.

Maybe.

Define brainwashing so that there are parameters for a communication to NOT be described as brainwashing and we'll talk.

Brainwashing usually references any effort to instill specific attitudes and beliefs in an individual, usually in a forcible or indirect manner. Brainwashing can be direct like Koresh's techniques which involved hours of no sleep pr eating etc. or it can be much more subtle, like propaganda. The commonality, is that the individual doesn't get much choice in consciously accepting the new beliefs, usually the beliefs are inserted through manipulating the Robot.

Brainwashing is to conversation as Hacking is to computer programming.

Nobody uses brainwashing to mean anything positive.

While hacking does have negative connotations in most peoples minds, there is a significant group of people who regularly use it to mean otherwise. If there is a group of people out there using brainwashing to mean something desirable, I'd certainly like to know.

Well, I used hacker in the more modern sense which is what we traditionally called a cracker or black hat, not hacker in the sense of a super-skilled computer geek that knows how to tweak systems to get them to do what he wants (or in the sense of a guy that makes furniture with an ax).

I don't think anyone said the word desirable, I think the word was Brutal (unless my reading comprehension is failing me ). Many brainwashing techniques are not brutal (even if we stay away from the argument that all religions, political parties, etc use brainwashing techniques),  hell the good ones aren't even noticeable. Look at how unbrutal the brainwashing of many US citizens was in 2002 when propaganda, FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) and manipulation of how data was presented made them believe (and some still do) that not only was Saddam harboring WMD's (which are still MIA), but that he was directly involved in 9/11.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

I don't consider government obfuscation and misdirection to mean brainwashing.

I know a few metric shit-tons of ways to powerfully manipulate people's minds. I notice layers and layers of them in ads and especially political speeches.

But, none of them override a person's will, or are coercive in any way. They are quite effective, but only insofar as they line up with a person's world view and values. The problem isn't that the government is spewing hogshit, it's that people shovel it down their gullet without so much as a blink or don't care that they're covered in it.

There's a distinction to be made between deception, misdirection, and brainwashing. The former two are not necessarily coercive, the latter must be or it's not brainwashing.

If you don't believe a random internet asshat like me, ask some professionals. See what any psychiatrist, clinical psychologist, hypnotherapist, NLP trainer, cognitive behavioral therapist, copywriter, neuro-marketer, or anyone else who makes their bread from persuasive manipulation about the nature of brainwashing.

I guarantee you their response will boil down to "coercive persuasion."

[LMNO]

[not in asshat mode]

I'm not sure what you mean by "coercive", or "overriding a person's will".

Just so we're on solid ground, do we agree that in both BrainWashing (BW) and Persuasive Manipulation (PM):

Before it happens, the subject thinks A, and after it happens, the subject thinks B.


I understand a line must be drawn, but I suppose I'm not sure where you're drawing it.

[P3nT4gR4m]

PM = after it happens, the subject is more likely to think B.
BW = after it happens, the subject is unable to think anything other than B.

[LMNO]

Yeah, but that's the result; I think Net was talking about the process.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Ok, I'll compromise.

PM appears as BW in some, but not all instances.
Most, but not all BW involves some sort of PM.
PM usually involves surreptitious means and covert messages.
BW may also include physically coercive measures.
PM usually involves hacking the brain via signals and symbol manipulation.
BW may also involve hacking the brain through exploiting the physical hardware.

But, overall, I think the goal seems quite similar. The entity in both cases appears, to me, as trying to place their ideas/beliefs into the minds of others without their consent or awareness.

Or, are those differences due to the fact that BW in the sense we tend to think of it, may be a personal and direct attack on a person (and thus customized brainwashing), whereas PM may be more common in terms of Mass Brainwashing.

Mass Brainwashing would probably be tricky, since it wouldn't necessarily work on everyone (assumption: since not all forms of brainwashing seem to works on all people). Thus maybe it would require a much less obvious means and message. Maybe.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Yeah but it's degrees of scale innit

The brainwashing process is well documented. It involves some pretty hardcore shit, like sensory deprivation, torture and the use of hallucinogenic/psychoactive drugs. among other things.

PM is generally regarded to be more gently administered and, as such, a less effective  form of advertising.

Someone who's been subliminally manipulated through media channels (if they conform to the target demographic) will be statistically more likely to behave or think a certain way whereas someone who has been brainwashed will, in all likelihood, kill or maim anyone who tries to prevent them behaving or thinking this way.

The downside of brainwashing, from the marketeers point of view, is that it defies a whole bunch of geneva conventions and is also very expensive to administer.

Otherwise we'd probably all be getting abducted, injected and tortured, on a daily basis by most of the major corporations. 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Yeah but it's degrees of scale innit

The brainwashing process is well documented. It involves some pretty hardcore shit, like sensory deprivation, torture and the use of hallucinogenic/psychoactive drugs. among other things.

PM is generally regarded to be more gently administered and, as such, a less effective  form of advertising.

Someone who's been subliminally manipulated through media channels (if they conform to the target demographic) will be statistically more likely to behave or think a certain way whereas someone who has been brainwashed will, in all likelihood, kill or maim anyone who tries to prevent them behaving or thinking this way.

The downside of brainwashing, from the marketeers point of view, is that it defies a whole bunch of geneva conventions and is also very expensive to administer.

Otherwise we'd probably all be getting abducted, injected and tortured, on a daily basis by most of the major corporations. 

I dunno. I grew up in a system which doesn't do sensory deprivation or anything of the sort (unless I've blocked it out! On Noes!!!) and upon reflection, I would say that in many respects it may be quite similar to brainwashing, or at least group conditioning (GC) in a way much stronger than persuasion, I think.

So maybe we're looking at a scale that begins with basic advertising foo, like cute girls on a beer commercial (G&B) and goes to brainwashing 

G&B-----PM-----GC-----BW

Obviously, I'm still missing something though since there aren't five points on that line. Damn.

[LMNO]

You missed "profit", of course...

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

G&B-----PM-----GC-----BW-----PROFIT!

You're right, LMNO!!!

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

[not in asshat mode]

I'm not sure what you mean by "coercive", or "overriding a person's will".

Just so we're on solid ground, do we agree that in both BrainWashing (BW) and Persuasive Manipulation (PM):

Before it happens, the subject thinks A, and after it happens, the subject thinks B.


I understand a line must be drawn, but I suppose I'm not sure where you're drawing it.

I agree to that in some cases.

But, everything I've read suggests that coercive persuasion is less effective than noncoercive means. So A may never even get to B.


In general I agree with Rat as well. I just make a sharper distinction in that brainwashing must be coercive and a live interaction between two people. The emphasis is on actual behaviors. Advertising highly depends on what the individual wants to do and there is no evidence that even the best TV ads can compel someone to do something against their will.

Also, advertisers DO want your consent, but before they can get that YOU need to give them your awareness.

I don't know where you guys are getting the idea that messages in ads can avoid the scrutiny of your values, identity and will. If you're thinking of subliminals, I can link you to the current thinking on them. The best that they can do is the priming effect. Advertisers largely abandoned subliminals for public backlash and that other methods are simply more effective.

How exactly do you think ads can covertly get you? Have you ever been "got" or know someone who has? What evidence are you basing these beliefs on?

[LMNO]

Here's one that got me.

I was in a bar, and wanted a beer, and they only had American Lager:  Bud, Miller, Rolling Rock, and PBR.


I know for a fact that all these beers taste the same (blind taste tests in college), and yet I immediately ranked them in my head:  PBR, RR, Miller, Bud.  Why?  Because of the advertising, and what kind of lifetyles the ads presented.


So I said, "fuck this," and ordered a Gin and Tonic.  But not Tanqueray.  Whoops, here we go again...

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

[not in asshat mode]

I'm not sure what you mean by "coercive", or "overriding a person's will".

Just so we're on solid ground, do we agree that in both BrainWashing (BW) and Persuasive Manipulation (PM):

Before it happens, the subject thinks A, and after it happens, the subject thinks B.


I understand a line must be drawn, but I suppose I'm not sure where you're drawing it.

I agree to that in some cases.

But, everything I've read suggests that coercive persuasion is less effective than noncoercive means. So A may never even get to B.


In general I agree with Rat as well. I just make a sharper distinction in that brainwashing must be coercive and a live interaction between two people. The emphasis is on actual behaviors. Advertising highly depends on what the individual wants to do and there is no evidence that even the best TV ads can compel someone to do something against their will.

Having been one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I disagree that brainwashing must be one on one and coercive.

Also, advertisers DO want your consent, but before they can get that YOU need to give them your awareness.

That seems true of anything we're talking about here though, doesn't it? Ads, propaganda,  persuasion or brainwashing. It all requires the awareness of the target.

I don't know where you guys are getting the idea that messages in ads can avoid the scrutiny of your values, identity and will.

Through the same means that memebombs, mindfucks and all those other games work... it's not that difficult to hack the human software.

If you're thinking of subliminals, I can link you to the current thinking on them. The best that they can do is the priming effect. Advertisers largely abandoned subliminals for public backlash and that other methods are simply more effective.

I agree with this.

How exactly do you think ads can covertly get you? Have you ever been "got" or know someone who has? What evidence are you basing these beliefs on?

By covert, I mean that they are covert in their means of persuasion. Product placement is covert, an ad that has beautiful beaches, beautiful women and nothing to do with the car insurance they flash for a second at the end... is covert. Using known psychological handles to manipulate people is covert, fake grass roots fans of various products etc all covert.

Now, I don't think that television ads will take over your brain and make you kill the President (the news on the other hand may do that). I think that there is a large area of "the manipulation of the minds of others without their consent" from slight manipulation("you NEED our product because you have a small penis") to serious manipulation ("Here's a gun and a copy of 'Catcher in the Rye'").

Marketing Depts may not be MKUltra, but neither do they appear wholly powerless and benign.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

Here's one that got me.

I was in a bar, and wanted a beer, and they only had American Lager:  Bud, Miller, Rolling Rock, and PBR.


I know for a fact that all these beers taste the same (blind taste tests in college), and yet I immediately ranked them in my head:  PBR, RR, Miller, Bud.  Why?  Because of the advertising, and what kind of lifetyles the ads presented.


So I said, "fuck this," and ordered a Gin and Tonic.  But not Tanqueray.  Whoops, here we go again...

Can you show that these have more to do with advertising rather than a reflection of your particular social schemata you've built over years of observation?

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

Rat:

1 - At the very least it has to involve a brainwasher and a brainwashee, in most cases it's a group and one target.

2 - Some seem to be suggesting a process that requires neither awareness or consent for recorded advertisements to dramatically impact their thoughts. These people need to read less science fiction.

3 - Memebombs, mindfucks, and so on don't compel you to do anything differently in your life. That still is up to the observer of the content.

4 -

5 - Again, I think this is a misuse of a term. All of these things are clear for anyone to see, not covert. Fake grass roots people have to be identified as actors or it's fraud.

"Known psychological handles"? As in, conformity, beautiful things, and dietary drives? If that is covert, than everyone is James Bond.

What is the mechanism that allows people's minds to be changed by a recorded ad without their consent to the change? What evidence do you have to support this claim?

I have a large mountain of evidence that strongly suggests otherwise.

The only way to coerce people into new beliefs is with live interactions between bipeds.