A rant : Magic (possibly Spirituality to)

[Kai]

Yeah, and part of my system is not calling it magic, because when I do it feels like someone elses bullshit, and is therefore shit for my uses.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Yeah, and part of my system is not calling it magic, because when I do it feels like someone elses bullshit, and is therefore shit for my uses.

Also, you tend to get taken for a smelly pagan.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Yeah, and part of my system is not calling it magic, because when I do it feels like someone elses bullshit, and is therefore shit for my uses.

Then what is wrong with that, if it's what you want to do?

[Kai]

Yeah, and part of my system is not calling it magic, because when I do it feels like someone elses bullshit, and is therefore shit for my uses.

Then what is wrong with that, if it's what you want to do?

Nothing. R-prime just means making fun of anyone who calls it magic.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Yeah, and part of my system is not calling it magic, because when I do it feels like someone elses bullshit, and is therefore shit for my uses.

Then what is wrong with that, if it's what you want to do?

Nothing. R-prime just means making fun of anyone who calls it magic.

Well, intentionally eating the menu is good for a gag

[Captain Utopia]

If the opinion of others is worth less to you than your own, then it doesn't matter whether you get trapped forever in Chapel Perilous.

Based on my understanding of Chapel Perilous, I would disagree... could you expound on this further?

From my perspective, Chapel Perilous is a place where a spiritual journey languishes - it may refine itself and create another roadside attraction or two, but fundamentally it doesn't advance significantly from its own frames of reference. A group is as equally prone to doing this as is an individual.

And that's the point - individuals are happy within groups which serve their goals, regardless of m/any negative consequences. If an individual has no motivation to be part of another group, then their behaviour within their original group is unlikely to change. Another side to this is the barbarism our civilization metes out on itself - there's literally no other choice of group for an individual to be a part of.

Similarly - if an individual is happy within Chapel Perilous then unless they have a motivation to explore further, then they won't. You see this with pinealist newbies who either run away from the abuse they get here crying "hive mind!", or they then decide that the opinions of others means more to them than the love of their own fnordery.

It comes down to communication - if everyone else seems so beneath you that they can't appreciate your genius, insight and perma-gnosis, then it doesn't matter whether you're actually in Chapel Perilous or not, as no one else will ever "get it" - no matter how hard you try. But if you care to communicate with others you disagree with then that structure will end up reprogramming you anyway - we all "go native" sooner or later.

Of course, I could have it all ass-backwards, but it makes sense to me.

So are there any external mechanisms which can shed additional light on the matter? Preferably without falling into the secondary trap of a group being held hostage to the delusions of its most vocal members?

There is no system yet devised that I am aware of which can avoid human delusion and True Belief. I find that sort of intelligence seems to be the responsibility of the individual... even systems of No Belief, like RAW's views and ideas, or simply the lack of belief in a God can turn into groups of sheep held hostage by the loudest bleating.

Huh. I guess we need a "Wikipedia of Truth".

To be clearer - I don't disagree with what you're saying - I think it's the best solution we currently have, but I still hold out hope we'll stumble across a better one someday.

Maybe, but a model or map can't replace actual sense. Without sense, an individual will get trapped in any map, funny clothes or not.

Maybe "hive mind" is the way to go

[Kai]

Yeah, and part of my system is not calling it magic, because when I do it feels like someone elses bullshit, and is therefore shit for my uses.

Also, you tend to get taken for a smelly pagan.

Yes, and nobody likes someone who is both smelly AND pagan.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Well, intentionally eating the menu is good for a gag

This is why I don't post in TFYS.

[singer]

I wouldn't know, because I am not the wisest man...but what I DO know is that the more jargon you need to describe your idea, the less valid it probably is.  That's how MBAs survive, incidentally.  By speaking a different language, so everyone thinks they know what they're talking about.

The "speaking a different" language thing is probably true of most professions.  Doctors, Lawyers, Bankers, Cops, Soldiers, Computer Programmers etc. all have a specific language used to convey information, and sometimes mis-information.  It's true that an ability to sling the lingo is often mistaken for genuine knowledge, but, sometimes new languages emerge because the standard terminologies fail to convey the meaning.

There is also the emergence of 'new languages' because the professional jargon fails to communicate ideas across a broader spectrum.  Like Tablature -vs- Sheet Music. There is a difference between the language of music as written out in standard sheet notation and as written in tablature, but they can both accurately describe the correct notes for a song.  If you only know how to read tabs you may mistake sheet music for jargon, but, it isn't.  It's just a different way to try to understand the same thing.

When considering a highly personal language, like magic or mind hack, common language is gonna be pretty hard to come by and eventually everyone resorts to metaphor.  Then we all have fun criticizing the menu while ignoring the meal.

Of course, as you have so aptly pointed out, sometimes it's all menu and there is no meal.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

If the opinion of others is worth less to you than your own, then it doesn't matter whether you get trapped forever in Chapel Perilous.

Based on my understanding of Chapel Perilous, I would disagree... could you expound on this further?

From my perspective, Chapel Perilous is a place where a spiritual journey languishes - it may refine itself and create another roadside attraction or two, but fundamentally it doesn't advance significantly from its own frames of reference. A group is as equally prone to doing this as is an individual.

And that's the point - individuals are happy within groups which serve their goals, regardless of m/any negative consequences. If an individual has no motivation to be part of another group, then their behaviour within their original group is unlikely to change. Another side to this is the barbarism our civilization metes out on itself - there's literally no other choice of group for an individual to be a part of.

Similarly - if an individual is happy within Chapel Perilous then unless they have a motivation to explore further, then they won't. You see this with pinealist newbies who either run away from the abuse they get here crying "hive mind!", or they then decide that the opinions of others means more to them than the love of their own fnordery.

It comes down to communication - if everyone else seems so beneath you that they can't appreciate your genius, insight and perma-gnosis, then it doesn't matter whether you're actually in Chapel Perilous or not, as no one else will ever "get it" - no matter how hard you try. But if you care to communicate with others you disagree with then that structure will end up reprogramming you anyway - we all "go native" sooner or later.

Of course, I could have it all ass-backwards, but it makes sense to me.

So are there any external mechanisms which can shed additional light on the matter? Preferably without falling into the secondary trap of a group being held hostage to the delusions of its most vocal members?

There is no system yet devised that I am aware of which can avoid human delusion and True Belief. I find that sort of intelligence seems to be the responsibility of the individual... even systems of No Belief, like RAW's views and ideas, or simply the lack of belief in a God can turn into groups of sheep held hostage by the loudest bleating.

Huh. I guess we need a "Wikipedia of Truth".

To be clearer - I don't disagree with what you're saying - I think it's the best solution we currently have, but I still hold out hope we'll stumble across a better one someday.

Maybe, but a model or map can't replace actual sense. Without sense, an individual will get trapped in any map, funny clothes or not.

Maybe "hive mind" is the way to go

I think our views on Chapel Perilous are somewhat different. In the sense used in Cosmic Trigger and Angel Tech, its a bit different than you explained.

If you stay in Chapel Perilous, then surely you languish... just as if you stay anywhere halfway through a trip, rather than pressing onward. However, I think we have a difference in interpretation of what Chapel Perilous "is"...

Chapel Perilous in the sense I'm using it (cribbed from Cosmic Trigger), is much more about the experiences in life which utterly shatter your perceptions... its the wrecking ball that demolishes your BiP.

For me, my first trip to Chapel Perilous was a series of events where everything I KNEW to be true for the first 23 years of my life came crashing down, leaving me with no idea of what was true, false, real, not real etc. Of course, I had no idea that was Chapel Perilous at the time... I just felt like my whole reality was gone. Every moral, every belief, every concept that I had based my life on imploded.

I either had to run screaming back to the Belief System and try to forget the incident... or I had to stay there, trusting nothing at all... just paranoid and confused, or I had to press on, come out of the Chapel and find out what then hell was on the other side.

Based on my views of Chapel Perilous, I don't think its possible for a group to enter the Chapel together. (any more so than its possible for multiple people to inhabit the same cell in the BiP).

Well, intentionally eating the menu is good for a gag

This is why I don't post in TFYS.

I thought it was a good pun.

I

Of course, as you have so aptly pointed out, sometimes it's all menu and there is no meal.

Very true... of course, unless you've ordered something off the menu and tried it... you don't really know. 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I don't need to put my foot in a cow pie to know what it is.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I don't need to put my foot in a cow pie to know what it is.

I agree. However, cow pies are very useful when applied as fertilizer rather than footwear.

[Captain Utopia]

I think our views on Chapel Perilous are somewhat different. In the sense used in Cosmic Trigger and Angel Tech, its a bit different than you explained.

If you stay in Chapel Perilous, then surely you languish... just as if you stay anywhere halfway through a trip, rather than pressing onward. However, I think we have a difference in interpretation of what Chapel Perilous "is"...

Chapel Perilous in the sense I'm using it (cribbed from Cosmic Trigger), is much more about the experiences in life which utterly shatter your perceptions... its the wrecking ball that demolishes your BiP.

For me, my first trip to Chapel Perilous was a series of events where everything I KNEW to be true for the first 23 years of my life came crashing down, leaving me with no idea of what was true, false, real, not real etc. Of course, I had no idea that was Chapel Perilous at the time... I just felt like my whole reality was gone. Every moral, every belief, every concept that I had based my life on imploded.

I either had to run screaming back to the Belief System and try to forget the incident... or I had to stay there, trusting nothing at all... just paranoid and confused, or I had to press on, come out of the Chapel and find out what then hell was on the other side.

Based on my views of Chapel Perilous, I don't think its possible for a group to enter the Chapel together. (any more so than its possible for multiple people to inhabit the same cell in the BiP).

Thanks for that.. I'm not sure how I managed to get so completely confused on what it meant. To clarify - I took the "not recognising an element of your own programming" part as being inside the chapel, and "revelation" or the event you describe as leaving it.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I think our views on Chapel Perilous are somewhat different. In the sense used in Cosmic Trigger and Angel Tech, its a bit different than you explained.

If you stay in Chapel Perilous, then surely you languish... just as if you stay anywhere halfway through a trip, rather than pressing onward. However, I think we have a difference in interpretation of what Chapel Perilous "is"...

Chapel Perilous in the sense I'm using it (cribbed from Cosmic Trigger), is much more about the experiences in life which utterly shatter your perceptions... its the wrecking ball that demolishes your BiP.

For me, my first trip to Chapel Perilous was a series of events where everything I KNEW to be true for the first 23 years of my life came crashing down, leaving me with no idea of what was true, false, real, not real etc. Of course, I had no idea that was Chapel Perilous at the time... I just felt like my whole reality was gone. Every moral, every belief, every concept that I had based my life on imploded.

I either had to run screaming back to the Belief System and try to forget the incident... or I had to stay there, trusting nothing at all... just paranoid and confused, or I had to press on, come out of the Chapel and find out what then hell was on the other side.

Based on my views of Chapel Perilous, I don't think its possible for a group to enter the Chapel together. (any more so than its possible for multiple people to inhabit the same cell in the BiP).

Thanks for that.. I'm not sure how I managed to get so completely confused on what it meant. To clarify - I took the "not recognising an element of your own programming" part as being inside the chapel, and "revelation" or the event you describe as leaving it.

Ah!

Yeah, it took me awhile to get what was being talked about with the Chapel... I initially thought you 'broke out' of the chapel to free yourself of old beliefs... but RAW's discussion in Cosmic Trigger is pretty straight forward. It's all about losing your reality tunnel.

Of course, Bob includes things like Alien Abductions.

Omar doesn't believe in Alien Abductions. One night Omar sees strange lights, hears weird noises and around 2:30 AM greys break in, take him to their ship and probe him anally.

Omar is now in Chapel Perilous.

Omar could
A) Decide it was a bad dream, ignore the aching sphincter and try to forget his trip to the Chapel.
II)  Decide it was absolutely real, completely factual and wear an aluminum foil hat to keep it from happening again.
3) Decide that he had some kind of experience which seemed similar to other reports of 'aliens', but without concrete evidence may have been something else, psychological, imaginary, some signal he picked up from the Collective Unconscious or maybe he'll just have to invent a new map of his reality with a small section for "What the Fuck?"

[NotPublished]

Then why call it magic?  "Mind Hacks" works better.  

Lack of better term I guess. I like the sound of Mind Hack.

But whether it is called by the name Magic or by the term Mind Hack is irrelevant to the actual practice, all that needs to be kept in mind is the Will/Intent and the Result. Perhaps using it under the name of Magic IS a bad term, it is very easy to associate a term with Mind Hack and we could possibly claim it as our own.

Also, while I don't necessarily agree with Brain Fucking, I find it can be very important (and useful) - confuse the hell out of people, they will crave the truth if they play along, once a version of said truth is fed to them .. Its almost like you've caught them in a trap.

I really do have to read up on Crowley and the likes, I've never touched any of those books.

But IMO, perhaps someone should leave a mark on the term Mind Hack, sounds very BiPish