The Oath of the Abyss

[P3nT4gR4m]

I thought the Masons weren't supposed to do that.

Every one that I've met has been open and willing to discuss what it's about, but will not imply that anyone should join.  They recomend it, but leave it up to the individual's choice.

Yeah, I doubt they were like "HEY YOU! JOIN!" More like "I know your life is teh suck right now, the Masons were really helpful in getting me some direction...." kind of stuff.

Though my friend seems to be seeing it in a "OMGZ this will SAVE ME" sort of light :-/

Again, from my buddies involvement with them, it seems to have elements of self improvement philosophy (maybe Rosicrusian - esque, I've yet to cross reference.), "How not to be an idiot monkey" / "Promote social stability" behavior standards, and networking.  To echo the old saying, there is no help, but I'd rather see a buddy of mine try to derive guidance from the Masons than a 12 step. 

One recurring theme from the OP is the amount of gravitas associated with conducting what IMHO is just a thought experiment.  I'm jsut not seeing the necessity of it.
 

Some thought experiments have the potential to really fuck you up. If you're not in the habit of doing things like this then it might be a bit hard to swallow - all you're doing is playing with your thoughts, right? Think about it this way - it's the subtle interplay of your thoughts themselves that make your whole worldview. Take racism - all a racist is, is someone who's thoughts are kinda twisted in a xenophobic direction. It's not genetic, it's not demonic possession, it's just a matter of forming an opinion, a worldview if you like. I'd guess most racists don't set out to be that way, they're either brought up and programmed with it or maybe it just happens, they get beat up by a specifically coloured person one day and reach a logical fallacy by way of conclusion.

That's the kind of shit that can happen by accident. When you start doing it on purpose, by the time you get the hang of it, you can make much bigger changes and introduce much bigger pathologies much more easily. Bit of care is required is all. The mind can be like a house of cards - it's a good idea to be careful when you're rearranging the ones on the bottom.

Let me elaborate a bit on that, as far as how I handle ideas and experiments like our "Oath of the Abyss"
(Good breakdown of the basics, but that wasn't where I was going with my post.)

It's your brain.  If you want to think a different way to see where it takes you, jsut do it.  You are asolutely right this will take practice and discipline.  Considering it an "Oath" that you have to take does give it a LOT more mental weight than just, "Ok, I'm doing this now until I get bored, forget it, etc.", and could make it easier to stick with, or focus on.  Is this mental weighting necessary though?  It's an agreement with yourself, and no cult, group, or otherwise is going to come along and smack you with a stick if you forget to think of everything in context of said oath for a minute.  If the idea (at least IMHO), is self development, then no one else can expect it of you or force you into it.  Crowley isn't going to rise from his grave to waggle a finger at you. 

"Try it, see how it works for you, and back off if you need a breather, if you forget or lapse out of it, pick up again when you remember", is my usual approach.  My head, my rules, I jsut don't see the purpose of dressing it up funny and dubbing it "Of the Abyss".

The bolded bit pretty much covers it. The oath is made between you and yourself or whichever token deity you adhere to. The act of oathing is much more convoluted and symbolic than just saying "I promise" the oathmaking process in itself  should be considered a mental primer.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I jsut don't see the purpose of dressing it up funny and dubbing it "Of the Abyss".

Props, some people need/want them.

[Richter]

I jsut don't see the purpose of dressing it up funny and dubbing it "Of the Abyss".

Props, some people need/want them.

Fair enough.  I forgot I was in a discussion predisposed towards the paradigm of ritual majdique for a moment there.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I jsut don't see the purpose of dressing it up funny and dubbing it "Of the Abyss".

Props, some people need/want them.

Fair enough.  I forgot I was in a discussion predisposed towards the paradigm of ritual majdique for a moment there.

Even if not in ritual magic... people use props a lot to help them deal with stuff. It's the Linus' Blanket ^TM effect

[P3nT4gR4m]

Our brains work by associating tokens with values. You want to fuck with your brain? Quickest way is to feed it some new tokens and values.

[Kai]

I just really hope this thread doesn't become a props/no-props argument, because it's pretty interesting so far.

[P3nT4gR4m]

I just really hope this thread doesn't become a props/no-props argument, because it's pretty interesting so far.

this!

The age old problem with magique being that dressing up in silly hats and prancing about in circles chanting gobbledygook is prolly not the best image to win hearts and minds. Same reason I don't "do" it tbh. I'd feel like a dick, standing around with a bunch of people in fancy dress pretending god is real. Same reason I don't do roleplaying games now that I think about it - I have a 'cool threshold' which I will simply will not allow my meat puppet to fall below. I realise this is a personal weakness but it's also a strength - I gets me teh poontang

[Richter]

Strange, despite being explained in the context or ritual madjick, the oath seems to involve moving towards viewing things UN influenced by interpretation, framework, or explanation.  Almost want to say it's cultivating a "Prop-less" view.  What do you all think?

[P3nT4gR4m]

I think that sounds about right. The props that ritualists use are only ever a means to an end. Adeptus is, pretty much, the end so it stands to reason that the means will be no longer required.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Strange, despite being explained in the context or ritual madjick, the oath seems to involve moving towards viewing things UN influenced by interpretation, framework, or explanation.  Almost want to say it's cultivating a "Prop-less" view.  What do you all think?

I think that sounds about right. The props that ritualists use are only ever a means to an end. Adeptus is, pretty much, the end so it stands to reason that the means will be no longer required.

I would disagree. The Adeptus is not the end its simply the last degree before the Abyss. On the other side of the Abyss you become the Magister Templi which is the initial  grade on the other side of the Abyss (3rd). This is tied to Binah (Mother, Moon). After that there is the second degree of Magus tied to Chokmah (Wisdom) and then the first degree is the one that starts with the letter I and I don't remember how to spell it (Ipsiss something) which is tied to Kether (Crown, God (sorta)).

If you consider the Kabbalah from the GD/Thelemic perspective you have the Source at the top (Kether), could be pure energy, God, the thing that makes everything. Since the Ipsiss level of attainment is basically the Pure Self... some interpret this metaphor to mean that the Magician is the Source, ala "Who is the great Magician that makes the grass green?".  Kether spills out its light/power (Kether is also related to the Crown Chakra) into Chokhmah, the 'Potential of What Is'. This is tied to the right side of the brain, as well as the Hebrew belief that God worked through 'The Word' or 'The Firstborn of All Creation' to create everything else. Kether The Father, Chokhmah, the Father's Force being crafted into Potential. This then crosses to Binah, Mother/Womb/Reciever and Creator. These three Spheres sit on the top of the Kabbalistic tree on the 'other side' of the Void. So the Source flows into the Potential which then impregnates Binah with this potential and Binah thus gives birth to that which is below, the Intent/Potential made manifest. You could interpret it as the Egyptian trinity of the Father, Son, Mother, or the Christian Father, Son, Holy Ghost...

Taking the Oath of the Void means that you are separating yourself from the metaphors used by the "Man in Malkuth" (the pedestrian 'normal' human that has no higher attainment and really, really for real believes that X is God) or the Man in Tipheroth (who perceives the metaphor of God, but still needs that metaphor).

The symbols and Props are all still a part of the system. Crossing the Void is the removal of interpretation, or assigning labels to 'whatever' Kether 'really is'. Interestingly, Crowley taught that there were three paths to ascend the Tree of Life. The Right Hand Path, The Left Hand Path, or a Path that intersects all of the Spheres. The Right Hand Path means understanding the Spheres on the Right side (ascending the Tree of Life through only the Spheres on the Right) and the Left Hand Path is obviously the opposite. Crowley claimed that you couldn't cross the Void if you took either of these Paths, but instead you must take the third way. Those who dive into the Void without understanding the Left and the Right will fail and become what Crowley calls 'The Black Brothers'.

So just getting to the Veil requires a deep immersion in a set of symbols/props. If you are at the point of Crossing the Veil, you are deeply steeped in the system, because that series of models/metaphors/symbols/props are what keep you sane once you dive into the Abyss. There are many layers to the Magical System of Thelema or the GD. Crossing the Veil means abandoning the model of labels like "God" and looking instead to a Source. Depending on how you eventually interpret the overall model, it may be that the final attainment is that you understand that 'Thou Art God'. The Magus becomes One With Kether attaining the grade of Ipsissimus (found the spelling!!) the superlative of Self... His Selfness is kinda the interpretation. Others claim that you gain Union with the Trinity of Sephiroth. (The Source, the Potential and the Receiver).

Now, depending on how one interprets Crowley's intent, we might see 'crossing the veil' as realizing the Self of the Magician. That is Kether becomes the Will of the Magician, Chokhmah becomes the Intent to Manifest the Will and Binah becomes the act of Creation by the Magician. With the Right side of the Tree and Left side of the Tree becoming the Right and Left side of the Mind. (not necessarily the physical brain)... making the whole trip a discovery of Self.

However, even the "Man in Kether" the Ipsissimus Himself may well use a Chalice, Dagger, Wand etc. Or he may simply use hand gestures or may use meditation and visualize his rituals... Casting off the metaphor of God is a bit different than casting off the psychological tools being used to manipulate the consciousness.

Also, its important to realize that neither the GD nor the Thelemic system see any of this as 'an end'. The initiation never ends, the Magus will always be learning more and gaining new understanding.

Please note, I'm not arguing that 'props' are necessary.... but they are a part of the Traditions related to crossing the Void and are used by those who have taken the Oath, within those systems.



EDIT: The observant Magician will also realize that the Three Spheres at the top appear to have a strong sexual connotation. Kether, The Man and Binah, The Woman joined through Chokhmah the Act of Potential... making the whole thing also a metaphor for human reproduction... cause magical systems are ridiculously layered like that

[Richter]

It almost sounds like another way of approaching Tao.  I'm not conversant in Thelema or Kabalakh though, so this may not be as accurate as it sounds in my head.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

It almost sounds like another way of approaching Tao.  I'm not conversant in Thelema or Kabalakh though, so this may not be as accurate as it sounds in my head.

Crowley was very interested in Eastern belief. He has his own translation of the Tao Teh King http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/lib157.htm and seemed profoundly interested in their concepts as compared to the Western Christian ones.

[Triple Zero]

Thelema is simply a reality tunnel, designed on purpose with the purpose being ... well we all know the purpose of Thelema, right?

no?

only reason I know about it was for the purpose of reading about spagging around with occult symbolism?

[Triple Zero]

I thought the Masons weren't supposed to do that.

Every one that I've met has been open and willing to discuss what it's about, but will not imply that anyone should join.  They recomend it, but leave it up to the individual's choice.

Yeah, I doubt they were like "HEY YOU! JOIN!" More like "I know your life is teh suck right now, the Masons were really helpful in getting me some direction...." kind of stuff.

Though my friend seems to be seeing it in a "OMGZ this will SAVE ME" sort of light :-/

on the brighter side, it means he'll be motivated, and therefore more likely to get something out of it?

[Triple Zero]

Strange, despite being explained in the context or ritual madjick, the oath seems to involve moving towards viewing things UN influenced by interpretation, framework, or explanation.  Almost want to say it's cultivating a "Prop-less" view.  What do you all think?

So, it's more like scaffolding.