Psychedelics question

[Cramulus]

great post

[Lies]

It has a clear bias and agenda that is pro-drugs and it is very anti-police.  I also find the tiny little section on addiction to be unbalanced.  For hell's sake it is promoting "do-it-yourself detox", which is an awful idea.  Also, it has some very outdated sources.  There has been a lot of research done on drugs and drug addiction so I don't know why they are relying on information from 1992.  It feels like they are really just considering data and information that fits their agenda and paradigm. 

Erowid has been a huge source of information for me, mind you, not *the* only source, but a big source, and i don't think it is "pro-drug" so much as it is "pro-information" and not so much "anti-police" as it is "anti-prohibition". Though if you can show me where you get this idea of it being "anti-police" I'd be grateful to see this.

It does have lot's of warnings on many of the chemicals there and it tells you what combination of drugs are bad and how to look after yourself and your friends who are on drugs, something a lot of what I think you'd call "non-biased" sites would rarely tell you.

And what's wrong with do-it-yourself detox? I do it, I'm fine.  Why pay someone to tell you not to do drugs?

[BabylonHoruv]

I'm not a chemist but i thought the actual details of the substances on Erowid were accurate, and the user submitted stuff was explicitly labelled as such (with the standard disclamers).

Their ayahuasca recipes are shit.  They have some good chemical information, and a lot of trip reports (and I do think a database of trip reports is a useful thing to have around, for everyone, those interested in using a drug, those wanting to prevent use of a drug, and those considering marketing a drug)

[AFK]

Erowid has been a huge source of information for me, mind you, not *the* only source, but a big source, and i don't think it is "pro-drug" so much as it is "pro-information" and not so much "anti-police" as it is "anti-prohibition". Though if you can show me where you get this idea of it being "anti-police" I'd be grateful to see this.

One of the things I am acutely aware of, and must be aware of, in my position, is messaging and messages that are intentionally or unintentionally sent to kids when it comes to substances, legal and otherwise.  If I were a 15 year old looking at Erowid, the overall feel of that website is very obviously tipped towards messaging that validates drug use.  The section on treatment is very weak, and as I mentioned has some very old sources.  The section about police is all about how to work against the police.  It offers little to no information on the great work police do to help addicted kids in crisis, or the police officers who help link kids with treatment, or the police who work in communities to keep kids safer.  But of course, all of those types of things are initiatives to get kids clean or keep kids off of drugs, and if the site were more balanced, those perspectives would be published. 

It does have lot's of warnings on many of the chemicals there and it tells you what combination of drugs are bad and how to look after yourself and your friends who are on drugs, something a lot of what I think you'd call "non-biased" sites would rarely tell you.

[citation needed]   

And what's wrong with do-it-yourself detox? I do it, I'm fine.  Why pay someone to tell you not to do drugs?

With all due respect, I have no ability to assess how "fine" you are or not simply from these letters on the screen.  But let me assume that you are "fine", you would not be the norm.  Someone who is severely addicted to alcohol and other drugs requires professional intervention.  Just like someone who has a mental health issue requires professional help.  It is a rare event when someone can just therapize themselves out of a significant mental health issue. 

And it isn't just about telling someone "telling you not to do drugs."  Honestly, as someone who has expressed interest in being a counselor, I think you need to have a deeper understanding of what drug treatment actually entails. 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

It has a clear bias and agenda that is pro-drugs and it is very anti-police.  I also find the tiny little section on addiction to be unbalanced.  For hell's sake it is promoting "do-it-yourself detox", which is an awful idea.  Also, it has some very outdated sources.  There has been a lot of research done on drugs and drug addiction so I don't know why they are relying on information from 1992.  It feels like they are really just considering data and information that fits their agenda and paradigm. 

I think that's mostly because its an informational site about drugs, their usage and user experiences. I wouldn't expect a site like that to tell me about drug prevention, addiction etc... just like I wouldn't expect a drug treatment/rehab site to have cool trip stories, or a discussion about how many people smoke pot without becoming couch potatoes that jabber incoherently about being one with the Universe.

It would be nice if both pro and anti drug sites covered the truth from both sides of the argument. Highly unlikely, but it would be nice.

[BadBeast]

I'll have to agree with this, erewid does seem a little too "user friendly", and if this were your only source for information on drugs, then you would be seriously under informed. As someone who has regularly used drugs of all kinds for about 30 years, I am horrified with the enthusiasm kids have today for getting totally wankered on any kind of shit, with no thought of the dangers involved.

When I was 15-16, things were a lot more discrete, there was a bigger choice of  hashish then, with maybe a choice of 5 or 6 different quality presses, from Lebanese, to Afghani Black, about 3 different grades of Morroccan, Pollen, hash oil, even the occasional bit of Temple ball. But all that's around today are domestic super strength skunkweeds. Not that it's not good quality, but it's just so available. And strong. No mellow lighter strains. And this is all the last two generations of kids have known. Zombie kit.

But the most disturbing thing is the availability of cocaine and heroin. No longer the domain of the dedicated injectors, smokable Afghan heroin has washed over the whole scene like a brown wave of crime, violence, and desperation. Smokable heroin goes so nicely hand in hand with the superior quality coke that's around, and the favoured method, is to wash it up into stone, and smoke it. I didn't even see cocaine until I was about 20. And even then, it was £70 or £80 a gram. Too elitist for my pocket. Now, it's twice as good, and £35-40 a gram, and it seems to bolster the whole scene up with the big city gangs descending on small towns, and just flooding the whole place with cheap coke.

Then, after 9 or 10 months, suddenly, the Heroin starts to appear but by then, it's insinuated it's way into every little corner of the scene. Nasty, exploitative, and dangerous. And it stinks. You can smell it wafting out of windows, or as someone walks past you in the street.

Over the years, I've learned (and only by the skin of my teeth) that once you start smoking rocks, there isn't enough cocaine in the whole fucking world to fill that bottomless hole.
But you can't tell them that. They look at you as if you're some sort of crazy old hippy. Then you watch them all spiral down the same fucking sinkhole, and get swallowed up. Scary shit, and I know the ropes. These kids don't have a fucking chance, some of them.

And the whole "get detoxed, stay clean for a couple of months, then have a spanner full of brown, just for old times sake" claims more lives than I care to think of. These cleaned up junkies who would do maybe £200 of heroin in a day, before detox, are doing a ten bag, and dropping like a sack of shit. Mostly dead. And every one of them still saying they have it all under control. Then winding up dead a few days later in some boarded up crack house.
Me? I can take it or leave it. So I leave it. But I've got 25 years of watching good mates die under my belt. Mostly stayed away from serious crime, done a few months prison. Wised up, and stuck too what I'm comfortable with. Recreationals. Occasional MDMA, Speed, mushrooms in season, none of which is going to start causing me problems. But all those kids are doing the full gamete of recs, including coke, every weekend, and drinking like there's no tomorrow. (Which for more and more of them is the case) I'm glad I'm not young and green today. I help where I can, with good advice, and counselling when it seems to be appropriate.

But my heart bleeds for the ones who are marked for it. You know the ones I mean. The ones who didn't get into it, as I did, to have a good time, bouncing around like a non-stop partying fuck monkey. The ones who get drawn into it because their lives are shit to start with. They haven't got any point of anchorage, no experience of anything different, and before long, no aspirations to do anything other than what they are doing. They are the ones who are going to get sucked in, chewed up, and (if they are lucky) spat out 25 years later, with absolutely no chance at starting again. They are the ones who are going to have that monkey on their backs for the rest of their lives. And there is nothing there for them to grab hold of if they want to jump off, once the ride has started.

And Queen start playing in my brain like a perverse head splinter.
Badda Dum, Dum, Dum, Dum, Another one bites the dust! And another one down, another one down, another one bites the dust.. . . .
Same old Gods, New Music, the bridge is out, and it's getting dark. Dangerous times, so walk in the light, people. Even if it's just a dull glow. Don't lose sight of it, because that darkness is fucking endless. So Be safe.  

[BadBeast]

This thread has developed somewhat, and really ought to be split or renamed. All this doom and gloom will be putting righteous seekers off their mushrooms, and that would really be a shame.
Tripping is as far away from that shit, as it's possible to get. Tripping is the only way many people are ever going to see some really important, life changing shit. Not everyone, true, but in the grand scheme of things, it's relatively harmless, and usually leaves us better people, for the experience. Word. 

[East Coast Hustle]

Now, I love a good once or twice-yearly encounter with shrooms (pretty much the only drug I indulge in anymore besides beer), but I wouldn't say that breathing walls, color trails, and incurable giggles are "really important, life changing shit".

[BadBeast]

Obviously, neither would I, but while that stuff is good fun, and quite distracting, if you double up what you've already taken at this point, all that illusiary stuff kind of falls away, and you can really open all kinds of shit up. It's not rare to have some kind of epiphany if you just keep chugging them down until you find a level you can really operate on. The thing is, epiphany is usually  a really personal thing, and when you try telling anyone about it the next day, you just end up sounding like you fried your brain. That's why all the ancient Mystery traditions are all couched in allegory and symbolism. You can't really convey something like that in words that other people take seriously. Our subconscious minds operate on symbolism, rather than language, so for a while, we get to read these patterns, and symbols, and their meanings, and how they act as a dynamic in our conscious mind. I'm not getting all Tim Leary here, just saying that there's fucking universes of untapped data that we can have a go on for a bit, if we're careful. And that can be really quite an eye opener. Or it can drop you splat bang into 6 hours of The Fear™. Which is still an eye opener, just not a pleasant one. That fear is the price it sometimes costs for tweaking our wetware like that. You have to speculate to accumulate, and those complete screamers, are pretty fucking hellish. That's as pineal as I'm letting meself get tonight though, before the acrid stench of patchouli starts leaching out of this thread.
Too late already? Shit like, faar out man. chill yer boots, and groove.  . . . look at the colours,

[Lies]

Erowid has been a huge source of information for me, mind you, not *the* only source, but a big source, and i don't think it is "pro-drug" so much as it is "pro-information" and not so much "anti-police" as it is "anti-prohibition". Though if you can show me where you get this idea of it being "anti-police" I'd be grateful to see this.

One of the things I am acutely aware of, and must be aware of, in my position, is messaging and messages that are intentionally or unintentionally sent to kids when it comes to substances, legal and otherwise.  If I were a 15 year old looking at Erowid, the overall feel of that website is very obviously tipped towards messaging that validates drug use.  The section on treatment is very weak, and as I mentioned has some very old sources.  The section about police is all about how to work against the police.  It offers little to no information on the great work police do to help addicted kids in crisis, or the police officers who help link kids with treatment, or the police who work in communities to keep kids safer.  But of course, all of those types of things are initiatives to get kids clean or keep kids off of drugs, and if the site were more balanced, those perspectives would be published.  

A lot of the information there is user contributed. I'm sure if you were to give them such links and your views, they would most likely publish it.

And on the flipside regarding police, have *you* ever been dealt with by police after being caught with drugs?
I have. And it's no fun, they don't seem to give a shit about your welfare at all, they don't treat you as somebody who needs help, they treat you like a fucking common criminal, no better then a murderer or a child rapist, so it's good to know your rights when you're being fucked over by police.

It does have lot's of warnings on many of the chemicals there and it tells you what combination of drugs are bad and how to look after yourself and your friends who are on drugs, something a lot of what I think you'd call "non-biased" sites would rarely tell you.

[citation needed]  

One such example- http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/pharmacology/pharmacology_enzymes1.shtml
And another- http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/heroin/heroin_health2.shtml
And this- http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/maois/maois_info8.shtml
There are many more if you bother to have a proper look around.

And what's wrong with do-it-yourself detox? I do it, I'm fine.  Why pay someone to tell you not to do drugs?

With all due respect, I have no ability to assess how "fine" you are or not simply from these letters on the screen.  But let me assume that you are "fine", you would not be the norm.  Someone who is severely addicted to alcohol and other drugs requires professional intervention.  Just like someone who has a mental health issue requires professional help.  It is a rare event when someone can just therapize themselves out of a significant mental health issue.  

And it isn't just about telling someone "telling you not to do drugs."  Honestly, as someone who has expressed interest in being a counselor, I think you need to have a deeper understanding of what drug treatment actually entails.  

Oh no, with all due respect, you're right. Some people *do* need professional help getting off drugs. Perhaps even a majority of people.
But sometimes professional help is the worst thing you can do.
I had several friends who were/are addicted to herion.
I don't know what they do in the states, but here in australia, if you have a heroin addiction, they give you methadone to replace it if you're in some sort of treatment program.
Having done neither of them, I can't say too much, other then what I've read, but from my understanding, Methadone is actually *worse* then herion, and really doesn't help you get off opiates, it's like replacing alcohol with methylated spirits for an alcoholic. (Not to mention, the relapse rate is pitifully high)

On the other hand, there is strong evidence to support that Iboga is extremely effective at getting herion users off herion quickly and pretty safely (given, it's not *completely* safe, but that's mainly because it's illegal and where ever you can get it would not be "prescribed" properly by a medical authority who has researched it and knows how much to give) and it has helped two of my friends get off herion for good, but it's as mentioned in the brackets, illegal to possess and get for fucked up reasons, and yet professional health clinics still push the methadone.

I really believe that drug-treatment facilities and options should be rethunk, if we truely are serious about helping people get off drugs and we need to stop treating drug users like common criminals, there are good *people* who get addicted to drugs, and they should be treated as PATIENTS who needs HELP and not thrown behind bars and left to suffer.

I still don't see what's wrong with trying do-it-yourself detox as a *first* line of sobriety, and failing that, seeking professional help.
In fact, that happens a lot of the time.

In your line of business, all you see are the failed attempts at self-detoxing. You're blind to those who are successful because hey, if they were successful, you never see them, right?

[BadBeast]

To be able to "do" (UK) Police properly, you have to see them not as people, but something else. Police. They are conditioned intensly to produce a very particular mindset. Not bright, with a talent for following proceedure. If you know what their "proceedure" consists of, you are halfway there. They respond to aggression, by ramping the odds up so high, that any raise to their raise, will very likely end in you being maced, or tasered. Not like the old days, when you could go toe to toe, with an obsequious little dogs cock of a Scuffer, and while you would eventually get arrested, there was always a chance of chinning one of them, and having it away before reinforcements arrived. Now, you even look at them sideways, they get all bristly and start sticking their chests out, and trying to walk like the self assured, confident well balanced humans, that they are so obviously not. So nowadays, you have to comply. As long as you haven't done anything heinous, or got a couple dozen pills in your pocket, you should be fine. Whatever they ask you,  they will not believe, or take your word for anything.
"Got anything you shouldn't have in your pockets, Mate"? If you say "Yes", and tell them you have a blim of hash, and hand it over, they'll still search you. First they ask "Got anything sharp in your pockets"? Which means, in Pigspeak, "Got any dirty used syringes in your pocket that I might prick my worthless hide on, and catch teh aids"? Same response, if you say no, they don't say, "Ok, "I won't bother searching you then". They say, "Because if I search you, and find something sharp, I'm not going to be very happy".

Fuck him. You're not here to make him happy. Just hold your hands out, and say "Take your chances then". They do not want to arrest you, if they can help it. But they will if you give them any reason to.

Be outwardly helpful, submit to a patdown search if they want to do that. protesting will get you nowhere. It's going to happen. If you have been drinking at all, they will try to get a reaction out of you. They will push you to a certain point, then if you get at all antsy with them, they will arrest you. (This is where I always got caught out) Fighting with Police when drunk, always ends up with a kicking, and a night in the cells, and possible charges in the morning. I was over 30 before I would learn to let it ride over me.

Smile at their clumsy attempts to get a rise. It's not personal, it's what their proceedure tells them to do. As you don't react, they tick the boxes, and let you go. (Keep your fucking blim for themselves though)

"I'm going to give you a "Street caution" for the bit of blow, Ok?  Like you have any choice.

I have on occaision said, "No, if you're just going to steal my pot, I want a proper caution down at the Station, from your Desk Sergeant. With the paperwork" They reply, "just fuck off home, you Joker". Off you go. It could always be so much worse. They rarely wander far from proceedure. They are lazy, and they are
not very bright. 
Let them maintain their illusion of absolute power. It reassures them, and doesn't last long. If you challenge it in any way, they get very nervous. Anxious, even, and tend to over-react. Mace, Tasers, pain, they have proceedure for that. So just treat them like automatons. It's not you, it's them.

They are the maladjusted cowardly fat ginger kid, whose dinner money you used to take from them every morning. The one who never learned to stand up for himself, and decided that he would never be bullied again! By anyone.
Shiny boots, and a Uniform does strange things to this type of person. Lets them get petty vengeance on the rest of the world, for their own shortcomings. They become Uber Bullys. Total control freaks. . Armed Thugs, itching for an excuse to exercise their proceedure with prejudice. Watch out for this type. He wants to slap you about, and probably have sex with you. He won't, but he wants to. And it makes his luurve for you come out in abberational behaviour. Like body searching, Handcuffing you needlessly tightly. Sneering. Making really unfunny jokes, that only he will get. So he can pretend to feel superior. For a while.

But you both know it's a shallow facade. Braggadocio, not to impress you, but to enable him to maintain his erection when he gets home to his beard Wifey, and tells her what a big brave man he's been at work today. "Ooh, My big strong Boar of a man, Stick it in me"  She'll say, in the same bored tone every time, as she files her nails. "Grunt, Chuff, Splat, Snore."  And it's all done. Done
to procedure. Sometimes he gets her to sign a form, with boxes to tick, for service provided. But mostly, he'll roll off, and fall asleep. (I once had a dalliance with a Scuffer's ex wife) They always have ex-wives. They put them on a kind of permanent marital bail, with conditions, like curfew, not allowed to have friends, a job, or their own money.  Blahddy blahhdee bleaah. I'm bored of talking about these dropkicked beetlefuckers now. Depressing me.  Hope this helps. 

[Lies]

To be able to "do" (UK) Police properly, you have to see them not as people, but something else. Police. They are conditioned intensly to produce a very particular mindset. Not bright, with a talent for following proceedure. If you know what their "proceedure" consists of, you are halfway there. They respond to aggression, by ramping the odds up so high, that any raise to their raise, will very likely end in you being maced, or tasered. Not like the old days, when you could go toe to toe, with an obsequious little dogs cock of a Scuffer, and while you would eventually get arrested, there was always a chance of chinning one of them, and having it away before reinforcements arrived. Now, you even look at them sideways, they get all bristly and start sticking their chests out, and trying to walk like the self assured, confident well balanced humans, that they are so obviously not. So nowadays, you have to comply. As long as you haven't done anything heinous, or got a couple dozen pills in your pocket, you should be fine. Whatever they ask you,  they will not believe, or take your word for anything.
"Got anything you shouldn't have in your pockets, Mate"? If you say "Yes", and tell them you have a blim of hash, and hand it over, they'll still search you. First they ask "Got anything sharp in your pockets"? Which means, in Pigspeak, "Got any dirty used syringes in your pocket that I might prick my worthless hide on, and catch teh aids"? Same response, if you say no, they don't say, ok, "I won't bother searching you then" they say, "because if I search you, and find something sharp, I'm not going to be very happy". Fuck him. You're not here to make him happy. Just hold your hands out, and say "Take your chances then". They do not want to arrest you, if they can help it. But they will if you give them any reason to. Be outwardly helpful, submit to a patdown search if they want to do that. protesting will get you nowhere. It's going to happen. If you have been drinking at all, they will try to get a reaction out of you. They will push you to a certain point, then if you get at all antsy with them, they will arrest you. (This is where I always got caught out) Fighting with

Eerie that, it's pretty much the same procedure over here.

When I've been in trouble with the law, I try to be as nice and courteous as  possible and not act aggressively,  hoping that some element of their humanity will see that I'm not a threat to them.
No such luck, they'll throw you on the floor if you look at them funny or ask them a simple question when it comes to your rights, they won't give a fuck about what you have to say, they've already made up their minds about you.
I've found the best solution when dealing with police is to shut the fuck up and not say *anything*,  just do as they ask and *don't* get friendly with them, police are *not* your friend, they're doing a job and they're programmed to do it in a certain way.
Everything to them is suspicious, they've been conditioned to think the worst of people.

[BadBeast]

Another thing with UK Police, that isn't so prevalent in US Police forces, is their Socialising is done exclusively with other Police Officers. Their personality (or lack of it) means they cannot relate to normal people. They can't stop being mistrustful, nosy, aloof, and superior. Which makes them piss poor company for anyone else. And if they are out, say at a Club, and they are recognised, they are in trouble. They do not have Uniform on. But they carry themselves like they are cock of the block still. They are fair game at these times. Vulnerable, because they aren't tooled up, or wearing those ridiculous stab jackets. If they get themselves into a fight, they are on their own. They can't ring up the Station for backup. Procedure would include their own arrest. And that isn't a good career move. So they are always edgy. They lie, about their job, if asked by anyone. They are told to do this, because it puts them in a vulnerable position. Where they might be targetted by a Villain, and forced to compromise themselves. Or the Force. Not much use to anyone, for anything much, any of them, IMO.

[BadBeast]

"You do not have to say anything, but it may harm your defence, if you fail to mention something now, on which you later rely on in Court. Do you understand"?

And they can't Arrest you, until you have indicated that you understand. If you play "thick as shit" and get them to try and explain it, in normal English, they get really pissy. I have a Police interview Tape, of me getting interviewed. I can legally post a script of it, for educational purposes, if I don't post the Coppers name, but the Copyright belongs to the Chief Constable, and I'm breaking the Law if I play it to anyone but my Legal representative. (I might upload it anyway) But it's quite funny in places.

[Lies]

Please do, I need a good laugh