Is the universe a holographic reality?

[Cramulus]

the link in the OP is getting stuck in my work firewall,

but--- what richter said!

if we're in a holographic universe -- what are the ramifications in terms of our behavior?

Even if it were true, I think it shouldn't actually affect our behavior at all.  I think of it this way--

Is it wrong to murder somebody in a dream?

   no, because the people in your dreams aren't actually people with their own unique point of view, consciousness, history, etc.

Is it wrong to murder somebody in the matrix?

   yes, because the people in the matrix have their own unique point of view, consciousness, history, etc.

[Doktor Howl]

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest we live in a holographic "phantom" reality, there is nothing implicit or explicit about it in quantum mechanics or physics of any kind, and if we did live in a holographic reality that was somehow "not real" (does this sound to anyone a bit like philosophical zombies?) everything would work as it does already.

Unlike many worlds, which is implicit in dehohesion does not violate other physical laws and explains the weirdness of quantum disentanglement without the stupidity of schrodinger's cat (like collapse postulate does), phantom reality doesn't have anything to it, it is completely meaningless.  It is equally as /weird/ as many worlds to the average person, but it is otherwise stupid and useless.

BUT...BUT...TEH QUANTUMS!

Yeah. The quantums.

Remind me to kill whoever was responsible for that film "What the *bleep* do we know?" That piece of shit is responsible for so much of this QUANTUMS madness. That, and that the collapse postulate (now defunct) was proposed before decohesion, leading to people believing that MINDZ CAN EFFECT QUANTUMS and ENERGIEZ FASTER THAN TEH SPEEDZ OF LIGHT. But the latter is more forgivable.

No, it's not.

These people should be fed to wolverines.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

A prediction?

Here's a direct link to the GEO600's site and their little blurb on last year's findings.

http://www.geo600.org/press-information/press-releases/holographic-noise

Basically the physicist, Craig Hogan of Fermilab, argued that if the universe was holographic in nature* then there would be some specific 'gravitational waves' making 'noise' (single quotes for terms that don't mean what the layman thinks they mean) at specific frequencies coming from the expanding edge of the universe since the holographic model predicts that the edge of the universe is grainy rather than a smooth space-time continuum. The GEO600 project picked up noise at those frequencies in the expected pattern about a year later (his first predictions were published in 2007 IIRC and the data was late 2008). Much more work is required as the article above states to see if these are possibly related or just junk noise.

What that means for us is debatable... mostly it would be cool for physics as it would (possibly) explain 'Spooky Action at a Distance'. It would also mean that given the right measuring devices scientists could learn a lot about distant bits of the universe by studying nearby bits (since all information is encoded in all parts of a hologram).

http://scienceblogs.com/catdynamics/2009/01/white_noise.php <-----Good Explanation Here
http://prd.aps.org/abstract/PRD/v78/i8/e087501 <---- Paper on the topic from Hogan (director of Fermilabs)






*note that doesn't mean "not real" it means that the universe encoding is different than we understand... but not that its magic or exists in our head or anything like that).

[Kai]

A prediction?

Here's a direct link to the GEO600's site and their little blurb on last year's findings.

http://www.geo600.org/press-information/press-releases/holographic-noise

Basically the physicist, Craig Hogan of Fermilab, argued that if the universe was holographic in nature* then there would be some specific 'gravitational waves' making 'noise' (single quotes for terms that don't mean what the layman thinks they mean) at specific frequencies coming from the expanding edge of the universe since the holographic model predicts that the edge of the universe is grainy rather than a smooth space-time continuum. The GEO600 project picked up noise at those frequencies in the expected pattern about a year later (his first predictions were published in 2007 IIRC and the data was late 2008). Much more work is required as the article above states to see if these are possibly related or just junk noise.

What that means for us is debatable... mostly it would be cool for physics as it would (possibly) explain 'Spooky Action at a Distance'. It would also mean that given the right measuring devices scientists could learn a lot about distant bits of the universe by studying nearby bits (since all information is encoded in all parts of a hologram).

http://scienceblogs.com/catdynamics/2009/01/white_noise.php <-----Good Explanation Here
http://prd.aps.org/abstract/PRD/v78/i8/e087501 <---- Paper on the topic from Hogan (director of Fermilabs)






*note that doesn't mean "not real" it means that the universe encoding is different than we understand... but not that its magic or exists in our head or anything like that).

Except "spooky action at a distance" is already explained by symmetric decoherence.

[Doktor Howl]

If the universe WAS a holographic reality, then the programmers should be beaten up and down the street, infected with syphilis, and dropped down a manhole.

But it isn't.  This is just another pseudo-religion for people who are afraid of being alive, same as the retards who think that consciousness is just a collection of interacting memes.

Allow me to reitterate.

[Doktor Howl]

This is starting to remind me of Intelligent Design "Theory".

[Disco Pickle]

I've actually read Michael Talbot's book on this, twice..  Once when I was 22, again last year, where he sites Bohm and Pribram's independent theories.  

He also gets into Jung's Collective Unconscious, and lays out how you could use the Hollographic model to explain some of the weird shit Jung encountered studying Pschitzophrenics and Manics.

I came away with a 'meh..  maybe'

He did an excellent job of explaining his reasons and conclusions.

It could be used to help explain certain phenomena that occurs at the quantum level, but it's just as improbable as many other theories about what seems to be happening at the Quantum level.

I'd recommend the book, because it's decent, but it is after all, only a theory.

[Doktor Howl]

It isn't a theory.  It's a hypothesis.

[Disco Pickle]

It isn't a theory.  It's a hypothesis.

what he said.

[Freeky]

I guess if one were to say they took a walk in the scientific philosophic ocean of my soul, you wouldn't get the tops of your toes wet, it'd be true, because all I can really think is, if the OP is true, then all that means is that we (probably) don't have souls, which makes the time you have that much more important. Or something.

[Disco Pickle]

I guess if one were to say they took a walk in the scientific philosophic ocean of my soul, you wouldn't get the tops of your toes wet, it'd be true, because all I can really think is, if the OP is true, then all that means is that we (probably) don't have souls, which makes the time you have that much more important. Or something.

I can't recall how much, if any, Jung touched on Souls in the classic sense, it's been years since I read his book on the Collective Unconscious, but his hypothesis was that while you have a personal conscious that is composed of your own experience and memories, there also seems to be a group or collective unconscious that everyone has, and accounts for having memories of events you couldn't possibly have experienced, among other things.

It's also just a hypothesis, but I don't think the idea discounts a soul, just renames it.

I'm going to pick up another copy of that next time Im at the bookstore.  It was dry at times, but very interesting reading.

[Doktor Howl]

Leaving this thread now.

Dok,
TOLD you guys it was ID in a funny dress.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

A prediction?

Here's a direct link to the GEO600's site and their little blurb on last year's findings.

http://www.geo600.org/press-information/press-releases/holographic-noise

Basically the physicist, Craig Hogan of Fermilab, argued that if the universe was holographic in nature* then there would be some specific 'gravitational waves' making 'noise' (single quotes for terms that don't mean what the layman thinks they mean) at specific frequencies coming from the expanding edge of the universe since the holographic model predicts that the edge of the universe is grainy rather than a smooth space-time continuum. The GEO600 project picked up noise at those frequencies in the expected pattern about a year later (his first predictions were published in 2007 IIRC and the data was late 2008). Much more work is required as the article above states to see if these are possibly related or just junk noise.

What that means for us is debatable... mostly it would be cool for physics as it would (possibly) explain 'Spooky Action at a Distance'. It would also mean that given the right measuring devices scientists could learn a lot about distant bits of the universe by studying nearby bits (since all information is encoded in all parts of a hologram).

http://scienceblogs.com/catdynamics/2009/01/white_noise.php <-----Good Explanation Here
http://prd.aps.org/abstract/PRD/v78/i8/e087501 <---- Paper on the topic from Hogan (director of Fermilabs)






*note that doesn't mean "not real" it means that the universe encoding is different than we understand... but not that its magic or exists in our head or anything like that).

Except "spooky action at a distance" is already explained by symmetric decoherence.

I'm not a physicist and I'm only stating what I've read. IMO if the Director of Fermilab, David Bohm and Karl Pribram all considered it a potentially useful model... and if the current physicists at GEO600 are tweaking their sensors to test the theory*, then I'd guess its an interesting concept. Hawking discussed the possibility as well particularly around explaining Hawking Radiation re Black Holes... and his newer theory that black holes may not actually destroy everything ... and the information may still exist in holographic storage.

I think its key to point out here, though, that we're not talking about a holodeck, the Matrix or anything like that... we're talking about the distribution of information and how its perceived.

I have made holographs (my old engineering mentor was awesome). Basically a holographic plate (the bit you shoot the laser through) is a blob of information... which when broken down is a smaller blob of the same information. So if we have a 4x4 inch glass plate that has been exposed to a laser bouncing off of a 3d object we can shoot a laser through it and "see" the image of the actual object projected. If we then cut that 4x4 square into 4 1x1 inch squares we can shoot a laser through and see the whole object (although its a bit more grainy). Its the information storage that's of real interest in the theory... not  some "There Is No Spoon" kind of thing.

So even if its true, given the right measuring devices, the barstool may have lots and lots of information about the universe buried inside... but it will still hurt like hell.



*hypothesis + prediction + observation=theory ... I think

[Disco Pickle]

A prediction?

Here's a direct link to the GEO600's site and their little blurb on last year's findings.

http://www.geo600.org/press-information/press-releases/holographic-noise

Basically the physicist, Craig Hogan of Fermilab, argued that if the universe was holographic in nature* then there would be some specific 'gravitational waves' making 'noise' (single quotes for terms that don't mean what the layman thinks they mean) at specific frequencies coming from the expanding edge of the universe since the holographic model predicts that the edge of the universe is grainy rather than a smooth space-time continuum. The GEO600 project picked up noise at those frequencies in the expected pattern about a year later (his first predictions were published in 2007 IIRC and the data was late 2008). Much more work is required as the article above states to see if these are possibly related or just junk noise.

What that means for us is debatable... mostly it would be cool for physics as it would (possibly) explain 'Spooky Action at a Distance'. It would also mean that given the right measuring devices scientists could learn a lot about distant bits of the universe by studying nearby bits (since all information is encoded in all parts of a hologram).

http://scienceblogs.com/catdynamics/2009/01/white_noise.php <-----Good Explanation Here
http://prd.aps.org/abstract/PRD/v78/i8/e087501 <---- Paper on the topic from Hogan (director of Fermilabs)






*note that doesn't mean "not real" it means that the universe encoding is different than we understand... but not that its magic or exists in our head or anything like that).

Except "spooky action at a distance" is already explained by symmetric decoherence.

I'm not a physicist and I'm only stating what I've read. IMO if the Director of Fermilab, David Bohm and Karl Pribram all considered it a potentially useful model... and if the current physicists at GEO600 are tweaking their sensors to test the theory*, then I'd guess its an interesting concept. Hawking discussed the possibility as well particularly around explaining Hawking Radiation re Black Holes... and his newer theory that black holes may not actually destroy everything ... and the information may still exist in holographic storage.

I think its key to point out here, though, that we're not talking about a holodeck, the Matrix or anything like that... we're talking about the distribution of information and how its perceived.

I have made holographs (my old engineering mentor was awesome). Basically a holographic plate (the bit you shoot the laser through) is a blob of information... which when broken down is a smaller blob of the same information. So if we have a 4x4 inch glass plate that has been exposed to a laser bouncing off of a 3d object we can shoot a laser through it and "see" the image of the actual object projected. If we then cut that 4x4 square into 4 1x1 inch squares we can shoot a laser through and see the whole object (although its a bit more grainy). Its the information storage that's of real interest in the theory... not  some "There Is No Spoon" kind of thing.

So even if its true, given the right measuring devices, the barstool may have lots and lots of information about the universe buried inside... but it will still hurt like hell.



*hypothesis + prediction + observation=theory ... I think

He got really into breaking down how holographs store information, and you basically summed it up well here.  It's how the information of the universe is stored in reality and then perceived by anyone observing.

The applications for computer memory and data storage alone are staggering.

[Kai]

A theory in the scientific sense is a well tested group of hypotheses that explain a massive amount of observations and experimental data. The theory of natural selection is an example, whereby theory denotes "natural selection" as an inducted, synthesizing principle which explains the question, "How did the diversity of life come to be in its current state?"

I personally would not call anything a theory that has not been observationally and/or experimentally verified.

Therefore, String "theory" not a theory, among many hypotheses I could have chosen as an example.