Happy now?

[Bhode_Sativa]

My biggest problem is with the idea that humanity is somehow more important than the rest of the world, that we have the right to fuck stuff up, simply because the rest of the organisms on the planet haven't revolted yet.  People are animals.  We are no more special than any other organism.  We have no more right to live than anything else, yet our predominant cultures are taking whatever steps possible to eliminate Natural Selection from the equation because other people dying "Feels bad." 

"Oooh, You can't say the word Retarded because it's insensitive!  What if someone's child has a genetic disorder?"  Then they should die, and the parent shouldn't have any more kids.  That's the way it works in the wild, and it's good for the species.  It ensures that only the most adapted survive, but these days everyone gets to survive, simply by virtue of being born.  Healthcare is one of the biggest things people who support civilization point to.  They say, "What if you broke your leg, you'd want to get it fixed right?  What if you were a diabetic?  Good luck getting insulin in the middle of the rainforest!"  I say, If I was one of the people with diabetes, I should die.  Tough titties.  That's the way it should go.  But NooooOoo, we can't have people getting their Feelings hurt!  Natural Selection worked on this planet since the beginning of life, yet in the last ten thousand years we have managed to fuck it up beyond all repair.

Human Comfort has come to replace the system that got us here.  Only the individuals who were more adapted to survival got to procreate, but these days anybody with a sperm or egg can pop out a little bastard of their own, to the detriment of the species as a whole.  The little bugger gets taken care of for a couple of months, and then it's off to daycare where they learn how to interact with other human beings from all the other little brats whose parents don't love them as much as they love a paycheck.  Once they survive daycare they get to spend the majority of the next thirteen years being forced to obey those in "Authority" and learning stuff they'll never use, but being prepared for getting exploited for the rest of their lives.  But John Taylor Gatto better enunciates the failings of the Education system to produce humans that can think critically, and it's successes in producing good little worker drones that keep the Machine^tm going.

Human Comfort is enhanced by dishwashers, clothes washers and driers, automobiles, the entertainment industry, and a billion other devices that make up "Civilization."  What we actually need to survive is food, water, air and shelter, but all of those things we have for comfort contribute to the ruination of our food, water, and air.  We are causing our own demise through our desire for comfort and ease.  How stupid is it to demolish the systems in place that keep us alive, just so we can watch American Idol and wear Designer Clothes?  Laziness and greed For Teh Lose.

I have a problem with the depth of greed in our culture that has given rise to and been enhanced by Advertising.  "Somebody else has more stuff than me, so I want it too, cause then I'll be TRULY happy!"  Bullshit.  More Dockers in your closet doesn't make you a happier or better person.

What I'd like to know is how the Hopi, !Kung, hell even the Iroquois and Aztecs are anywhere near as bad as the Roman Catholic Church, DuPont Chemicals, and the US Government.

My characterization of individuals in most tribes - "I am an integral part of my environment, symbiotic with the plants, animals, and insects that live around me.  I care about the relationships I have with others of my tribe, and my actions benefit all.  I have all that I need for survival."

My characterization of individuals in most "successful cultures" - "Go to work doing a job that I hate, working for bosses I hate for the majority of my life, in order to buy more shit that I don't really need and that won't make me happier, maybe pop out a couple of kids who will grow up to pay for my stupidity, greed, and laziness, by being just as miserable as I am, only with a lot fewer freedoms, quality relationships, arable land, drinkable water, and other living breathing organisms."

How much time during the week do you spend working, getting ready for work, traveling to or from work, and thinking about work?  How much time during the week do you spend improving yourself, your relationships, and preparing your children to be decent human beings?  Corporations control the bulk of individual's lives directly, and the rest of their lives through their control of the government.  When's the last time you ever heard of a Lobbying Group for the good of the people?

What it boils down to is this:  I see the Machine^tm as a function of greed and powerlust and people not giving a shit about the consequences of their actions beyond turning a profit, which is mostly found when there is a system of hierarchy, where someone can say "I'm better than you because I make more money, and have more power" because money is a construct of people, and power is only in people's minds.  As long as you can convince people that money matters and they have to obey you (through Religion, etc) then you can "win" at a game I don't want to play.  The answer is to get rid of hierarchy, and to look at societies that function without it, or money.

Human Civilization is quickly failing as evolutionarily viable option, and wiping itself off the face of the planet with every ton of garbage buried in a landfill and every factory chugging pollutants into the air.  I just think it's a shame that we're ruining the planet for everything/everyone else who doesn't want to live this way.  I also think it's a shame that it might take a few hundred years for the reality of our failure to catch up with blissninny dreamland we get piped into every home through the Magic Of TV.

I find it difficult to ignore the stupidity of those people completely happy to skip and sing on the way down the gullet of a Dragon of our own making, yet I don't see any other options than to walk right next to them.  But I'll be damned if I'll be happy about it.

It was also an invitation to eliminate my existence from the face of the planet.  I do not fear death.  Ass

[BADGE OF HONOR]

 


Anarchy would make everything better!   

[vexaph0d]

not to be an asshole, but i'm calling bullshit.  first of all, humanity, like every other species -- every virus, moss, lichen, amoeba, and fungus -- has the "right" to expand and raise havoc in the ecosystem and generally shove out all competitors and obstacles, because that is the nature of life in general.  a population will expand and expand until there is no room left to expand.  the fabled 'symbiosis' you speak of between every other population in the wild is not a peaceful one, but one built on constant war for territory and resources, from the smallest bacterium to the blue whale.  life is an exercise in violence.

the concept of who has the 'right' to do something (or not), is a concept borne of the Enlightenment and is in no way a natural law.  in nature, the only rights you have are the ones you exercise, and the only opportunities you are guaranteed are the ones you make for yourself.  everyone bitches about the harm we are doing to the environment, but i have said it before: if the rain forest deserves to be saved, it will evolve a way to protect itself.  otherwise, it's added to the list of casualties in the war for global domination just like millions of other things have been, dating back a lot farther than the first time some whiny asshole in a mass-produced GreenPeace t-shirt got the sobs during Ferngully.

your entire argument is "humans are just animals."  well, we are doing a fucking fantastic job of pwning the fuck out of this insignificant speck of cosmic dust if you ask me.  and that's all any "just an animal" has ever been programmed to do.  take an environment, suit it to your needs, fuck like rabbits and multiply, then move on.  you'll have to excuse me if i don't go all sour grapes at the human race for following basic genetic directives.

it's true we are a shitty excuse for an enlightened species, but that's because "we" are NOT an enlightened species.  we'll never behave like we have our heads anywhere other than stuck right up our asses, although we might invent newer and more powerful deoderizing aerosol sprays to mask the scent.  YUO should just realize how lucky you are that we don't put CFCs in them. anymore.


vexaphod.

ps: "Or Kill Me" copyright TGRR. just sayin.

[Bhode_Sativa]

not to be an asshole, but i'm calling bullshit.  first of all, humanity, like every other species -- every virus, moss, lichen, amoeba, and fungus -- has the "right" to expand and raise havoc in the ecosystem and generally shove out all competitors and obstacles, because that is the nature of life in general.  a population will expand and expand until there is no room left to expand.  the fabled 'symbiosis' you speak of between every other population in the wild is not a peaceful one, but one built on constant war for territory and resources, from the smallest bacterium to the blue whale.  life is an exercise in violence.

the concept of who has the 'right' to do something (or not), is a concept borne of the Enlightenment and is in no way a natural law.  in nature, the only rights you have are the ones you exercise, and the only opportunities you are guaranteed are the ones you make for yourself.  everyone bitches about the harm we are doing to the environment, but i have said it before: if the rain forest deserves to be saved, it will evolve a way to protect itself.  otherwise, it's added to the list of casualties in the war for global domination just like millions of other things have been, dating back a lot farther than the first time some whiny asshole in a mass-produced GreenPeace t-shirt got the sobs during Ferngully.

your entire argument is "humans are just animals."  well, we are doing a fucking fantastic job of pwning the fuck out of this insignificant speck of cosmic dust if you ask me.  and that's all any "just an animal" has ever been programmed to do.  take an environment, suit it to your needs, fuck like rabbits and multiply, then move on.  you'll have to excuse me if i don't go all sour grapes at the human race for following basic genetic directives.

it's true we are a shitty excuse for an enlightened species, but that's because "we" are NOT an enlightened species.  we'll never behave like we have our heads anywhere other than stuck right up our asses, although we might invent newer and more powerful deoderizing aerosol sprays to mask the scent.  YUO should just realize how lucky you are that we don't put CFCs in them. anymore.


vexaphod.

ps: "Or Kill Me" copyright TGRR. just sayin.

First off, you're not being an asshole, I like discussion because it helps me know more and think about things in different ways.

Symbiosis is just an exercise in violence, but a pack of wolves doesn't wipe out an entire herd of deer, it kills enough to eat.  Humans wipe out entire species because it's convenient.  Farmers hunted wolves to the brink of extinction because they didn't wanna lose livestock.  Humans eradicated smallpox because it was a threat.  Anything that interferes with production will be eliminated, Game Over.

As far as population growth goes, I feel there is such a thing as too much expansion.  See http://dieoff.org/page80.htm which talks about a population of reindeer that were introduced to an island with a plentiful food supply and no natural predators.  I draw similarities between them and us as humans are ever increasing our food supply and working to eliminate all sources of population control.  We're getting too big for our britches, with the added benefit of ruining the rest of the planet for all other species.

Actually, all most animals do is adapt themselves to fit their environment.  Some species use tools in a limited fashion, but if they didn't fit the environment already around them they wouldn't have survived.  I would just like to see humans get back to the point where they fit to their environment, instead of forcing the environment to conform to humanities flawed expectations.  Due to stupidity and arrogance we can wipe out what took billions of years of evolution to create.

I didn't know anything was copyright by anybody, except a few Rants I read in PDF the other day, and the "Or kill me" argument seems to be larger than any one person.

Good things.

Fixored

[vexaph0d]

yes, but...

we are a dominant species in an environment that has plenty of resources to sustain our population (and more), and no predators.  we are fulfilling our natural mandate to secure our supremacy in our environment until we cannot secure it any further.  all animals do this (case in point: your reindeer.)  this is natural behavior.  should we be smarter than this?  we'd like to think so, but no.  we're still just animals, after all.

and what do you want? do you want us to implement euthanasia and cut social health care spending and quit teaching our kids to wash their hands before they eat?  these are all methods we as a species have learned to use in order to keep being the dominant species.  eventually, we will kill ourselves off.  but that's what happens.

and we're not going to ruin the planet for all other species.  last time i checked in on the general consensus in the scientific community, the meteor impact that killed the dinosaurs also wiped out 90% of all life on the planet.  that's about four and a half shit-tons more than we could do even with full-scale global nuclear war.  and the planet bounced back.

i just think that we should let our species keep running full speed ahead toward the cliff of our own inevitable self-destruction.  not only because that's good material for heavy metal lyrics, or because it's good for a chuckle, but also because eventually something has to kill us off or we'll CNN is going to have to fire their breaking news crew and just show rerun tapes from the 70s, and i'd hate for those overpaid wenches to have to find a real job.  slack for all, and all for slack.

and 'or kill me' doesn't belong to roger, i just like it more when he says it.

[Bhode_Sativa]

I've just been reading different stuff lately, changing my own paradigms and I needed help adjusting to it all, but what you say makes sense, as far as life bouncing back. 

And, it may be insensitive, but yes, we should implement euthanasia and selective breeding measures to get the population back to sustainable levels, but nobody'd go along with that.  I find it interesting that when lions get too old to compete they go off alone and die.  Same thing with elephants, and I'm sure other species as well.  Too bad humans aren't "Allowed" to do the same thing.  Although, if I make it long enough I've got a couple of ideas for a show-stopper ending, but maybe lung cancer will get me first, Who knows?

I think I may be over my soap-box now, but that could change again, and I really enjoyed this civilized discussion, so thanks.

[vexaph0d]

did you know: Earth has resources and arable land capable of supporting 100 billion human beings?

what's sad isn't that there there are people starving in the world right now.  what's sad is that so many people have been convinced that euthanasia and selective breeding are more realistic answers to starvation than distributing resources fairly.

then again, given humanity's track record in the field of social justice, pregnancy licenses and 'mercy' killings probably are more realistic.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

My biggest problem is with the idea that humanity is somehow more important than the rest of the world, that we have the right to fuck stuff up, simply because the rest of the organisms on the planet haven't revolted yet.  People are animals.  We are no more special than any other organism.  We have no more right to live than anything else, yet our predominant cultures are taking whatever steps possible to eliminate Natural Selection from the equation because other people dying "Feels bad." 


Or kill me.

1.  Opposable thumbs, Baby...top of the food chain.  That's all the justification we need.

2.   

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I didn't know anything was copyright by anybody, except a few Rants I read in PDF the other day, and the "Or kill me" argument seems to be larger than any one person.

TGRR,
Copyrighted his rants, but will now fuck with you forever, rather than sue you.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Actually, all any animal does is adapt itself to fit it's environment.  Some species use tools in a limited fashion, but if they didn't fit the environment already around them they wouldn't have survived.  I would just like to see humans get back to the point where they fit to their environment, instead of forcing the environment to conform to humanities flawed expectations.  Due to stupidity and arrogance we can wipe out what took billions of years of evolution to create.

1.  But you said we're just animals.  Animals will fill their niche entirely, given lack of competition.

2.  Some animals have adapted quite well to our presence...rats and cockroaches, for example...when we're gone, they'll refer to this as the golden age, when food just appeared.

3.  Make up your fucking mind, hippie...are we just animals, or are you going to hold us to a different standard?  Oh, and come up with your own fucking tagline, shithead.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

No, I'm not "Happy now".  "Or kill me" is still at the end of your post.

In fact, I have decided, based on your little fucking ripoff, to derail each and every thread you start.

[Bhode_Sativa]

I don't recall where I read it, but the idea is that you can take any argument to a level where most people won't follow by using the phrase "or kill me" to emphasize your commitment to your position.  You can't possibly own that, although I can understand your reluctance to share something you've used to define your individuality. 

Rats and cockroaches have adapted to the environment we presented them with, successfully.  How does that not fit with my assertion?

Out of all the things I've written, that's the worst you can pick on?

Bitter much? 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I don't recall where I read it, but the idea is that you can take any argument to a level where most people won't follow by using the phrase "or kill me" to emphasize your commitment to your position.  You can't possibly own that, although I can understand your reluctance to share something you've used to define your individuality. 

Rats and cockroaches have adapted to the environment we presented them with, successfully.  How does that not fit with my assertion?

Out of all the things I've written, that's the worst you can pick on?

Bitter much? 

More bitter than you'll ever know, but that has nothing to do with you.

Anyway, you're now my personal mission.  You will never again be able to hold any kind of meaningful conversation here, or start any kind of thread, without me stopping in to fuck it up.

So much for your bullshit excuse.

[BADGE OF HONOR]

Ugh, why don't you just go back to the mall where you belong.  The Hot Topic kiddies will take more kindly to your bullshit.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Ugh, why don't you just go back to the mall where you belong.  The Hot Topic kiddies will take more kindly to your bullshit.

Let's derail this bitch.

Please to start posting endless image files.