Magic: Who thinks they can do it, and why otherwise intelligent people buy it.

[Epimetheus]

Yeah I like my filter left on at all times too. Saves me lots of otherwise wasted time.

Chevrolet banana big fucking hot dogs.

I can imagine this as a lyric in some stupid kid-punk music. That or a line from an Allen Ginsberg poem.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Yeah I like my filter left on at all times too. Saves me lots of otherwise wasted time.

Chevrolet banana big fucking hot dogs.

I can imagine this as a lyric in some stupid kid-punk music. That or a line from an Allen Ginsberg poem.

Rutubagas. 

[Kai]

You have more to gain by being in control of your own mind than you do by playing what amounts to an elaborate game of "make the baby eat its food by pretending it's an airplane" with yourself.

problem is that, in a lot of respects, thats exactly how your subconscious mind works and if you're not affecting/communicating directly with the subconscious then you're only scratching the surface of what can be achieved.

thank you, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh.

now, anyone got any scientifically valid counterpoints to my post?

I think theres something to be said for the usefulness of tapping into metaphor, visualisation, psychosomatics, and other methods to aid goal actualization and overall health. I've got no citations for that.

[Salty]

You have more to gain by being in control of your own mind than you do by playing what amounts to an elaborate game of "make the baby eat its food by pretending it's an airplane" with yourself.

problem is that, in a lot of respects, thats exactly how your subconscious mind works and if you're not affecting/communicating directly with the subconscious then you're only scratching the surface of what can be achieved.

thank you, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh.

now, anyone got any scientifically valid counterpoints to my post?

I think theres something to be said for the usefulness of tapping into metaphor, visualisation, psychosomatics, and other methods to aid goal actualization and overall health. I've got no citations for that.

I agree with this however...

1. The measure of effectiveness, especially when bringing out positive effects in other, is negligible. People have such messy minds and the challenge of going from (or correctly identifying) Desire and arriving at an outcome (which rarely looks like what you wanted) is beyond most people.

And

2. For people like me, the temptation to fall deeply into the illusion is too strong to be trusted. 

[East Coast Hustle]

You have more to gain by being in control of your own mind than you do by playing what amounts to an elaborate game of "make the baby eat its food by pretending it's an airplane" with yourself.

problem is that, in a lot of respects, thats exactly how your subconscious mind works and if you're not affecting/communicating directly with the subconscious then you're only scratching the surface of what can be achieved.

thank you, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh.

now, anyone got any scientifically valid counterpoints to my post?

I think theres something to be said for the usefulness of tapping into metaphor, visualisation, psychosomatics, and other methods to aid goal actualization and overall health. I've got no citations for that.

Pent's post appears to be saying that it is necessary rather than being merely useful (which it is, in the same way a morning cigarette is "useful" in calming the nerves of a smoker).

[P3nT4gR4m]

FTR I never said anything was "necessary"

Fucking about with your own mental wiring is simply something you can do if the fancy takes you. My point about the subconscious was simply that in order to fuck around with that particular subsystem you need some kind of semantic interface in order to establish two way communication. The "make the baby eat its food by pretending it's an airplane" thing you mentioned. Without that then you're driving the car rather than tuning the engine and setting up the suspension and brakes, ie. scratching the surface.

Most people are quite happy to not get inside the guts of their mind. Just like most people don't want to know how to program computers or cook haute cuisine. They're happy enough to just surf the web and use emails or order in a restaurant but, if they are serious about totally rewiring their head then there's no avoiding the subconscious.

There is no science here unless you count psychology (which I don't) and it's not required. If you want proof - go have a look. Truth is it's all in your head and that's where the science thing breaks down. That's where the rational falls apart. Most people say "oh, it's all in your head. Well fuck that it's bullshit then." I'd have to agree - yes, it's bullshit but that doesn't make it any less fun for a lot of people. Quake3 is just a computer game, it's not real nobody actually dies but what the fuck it's fun if you like that sort of thing. Regardless of whether science can explain rocket jumping or not. 

[East Coast Hustle]

I just don't believe that I need smoke and mirrors and self-deceit to interact and/or tinker with my subconscious.

[Cain]

Assuming the subconscious even exists.

[East Coast Hustle]

yes, assuming that.

and frankly, if it does exist and won't talk to me until I placate it with some arcane bullshit, I don't want to be friends with it anyway.

[Kai]

yes, assuming that.

and frankly, if it does exist and won't talk to me until I placate it with some arcane bullshit, I don't want to be friends with it anyway.

Only one's own bullshit works with one's own mind.

[Shai Hulud]

I just don't believe that I need smoke and mirrors and self-deceit to interact and/or tinker with my subconscious.[...] and frankly, if it does exist and won't talk to me until I placate it with some arcane bullshit, I don't want to be friends with it anyway.

You cannot simply write off the efficacy of "magic" by calling it "smoke and mirrors and self-deceit."  Self deception implies that there is an objective truth to begin with.  Again assuming that the subconscious exists, it's folly to think that you can sit your sub-conscious down and talk things over with it like an adult.  

And really no assumptions need to be made: even if a Freudian subconscious doesn't actually exist as such, the question is the effectiveness of certain methods, not whether or not the methods are distasteful.  Just because these methods distort or modify the thing-in-itself does not mean the result in unreal (or at least that the unrealness is no less valid, depending on your definition of reality).

[Cain]

[Jasper]

I feel it necessary that I intervene here, lest we all begin to agree.

There is a scientific basis for the existence of a subconscious mind.

Wikipedia:

Unconscious processing of information about frequency

For example, an extensive line of research conducted by Hasher and Zacks[39] has demonstrated that automatically (i.e., outside of conscious awareness and without engaging conscious information processing resources), individuals register information about the frequency of events. Moreover, that research demonstrates that perceivers do that unintentionally, truly "automatically," regardless of the instructions they receive, and regardless of the information processing goals they have. Interestingly, their ability to unconsciously, and relatively accurately tally the frequency of events appears to have little or no relation to the individual's age, education, intelligence, or personality, thus it may represent one of the fundamental building blocks of human orientation in the environment and possibly the acquisition of procedural knowledge and experience, in general.

ETA:  Same article:  "...there is an extensive body of conclusive research and knowledge in the contemporary cognitive psychology devoted to the mental activity that is not mediated by conscious awareness."

[East Coast Hustle]

I just don't believe that I need smoke and mirrors and self-deceit to interact and/or tinker with my subconscious.[...] and frankly, if it does exist and won't talk to me until I placate it with some arcane bullshit, I don't want to be friends with it anyway.

You cannot simply write off the efficacy of "magic" by calling it "smoke and mirrors and self-deceit."  Self deception implies that there is an objective truth to begin with.  Again assuming that the subconscious exists, it's folly to think that you can sit your sub-conscious down and talk things over with it like an adult.  

And really no assumptions need to be made: even if a Freudian subconscious doesn't actually exist as such, the question is the effectiveness of certain methods, not whether or not the methods are distasteful.  Just because these methods distort or modify the thing-in-itself does not mean the result in unreal (or at least that the unrealness is no less valid, depending on your definition of reality).

1. yes, I most certainly can. because it's NOT fucking "magic" at all. I'm not writing off the efficacy of tinkering with your own mental programming and subroutines, I'm saying that you don't need to trick yourself into being able to interface directly with your own mind. You can just decide to do it and then, y'know, DO it. Without rituals, incantations, sigils, or any of the other crutches of the weak-minded.

2. snorting crystal meth (as opposed to using your own willpower) is an effective, if distasteful, method of staying awake all night to study/work/whatever. Just because this method turns you into a raving tweak zombie does not mean the result of staying awake all night is unreal or less valid.

[Cain]

Oh, I wont deny the unconscious mind can do things, but the subconscious in a pseudo-Freudian sense is a very uncertain proposition.  In fact, even most Freduian psychoanalysts think it is bullshit term.  That was more what I was taking aim at.