Magic: Who thinks they can do it, and why otherwise intelligent people buy it.

[P3nT4gR4m]

I just don't believe that I need smoke and mirrors and self-deceit to interact and/or tinker with my subconscious.

At which point did "need" enter into this discussion?

You don't need it. But you do need some method. Personally smoke and mirrors and dressing up and chanting and shit does fuck all for me either but some of the symbolic shit I do use would probably fall under the description "magic"

Certain Symbols and archetypes which I and (as far as I care) I alone find useful/rewarding/interesting.

But you demanded science earlier ITT so lets go there. Ask a psychologist or psychiatrist or whichever peer accredited snake oil salesman you care to pick and ask them - What would you need to make changes in your subconscious and/or ego.

I'm pretty sure the answer would be in the form of "something" probably something really sciency and educated -sounding.

I'm pretty sure, by the same token, it wouldn't be - just, yknow, decide there and then.

Stuff is generally accepted to be needed. Several methods of "stuff" are broadly collected under the heading "magic"

Other such "stuff" would be hypnosis (self or assisted), meditation, nlp ...

Plus you can mix 'n' match but I never heard of anyone getting results by "just decide[ing] to do it and then, y'know, DO[ing] it"

Mybe you're the first. Or maybe you're what those mystical wiccan fuckheads would call "naturally gifted eclectic" 

[Shai Hulud]

1. yes, I most certainly can. because it's NOT fucking "magic" at all. I'm not writing off the efficacy of tinkering with your own mental programming and subroutines, I'm saying that you don't need to trick yourself into being able to interface directly with your own mind. You can just decide to do it and then, y'know, DO it. Without rituals, incantations, sigils, or any of the other crutches of the weak-minded.

I don't think it's really useful to keep the exchange going without a definition of "magic" since you maintain that "magic" isn't magic at all (an interesting paradox!).

It's not that I disagree with you that sigils, etc. are not necessarily needed to, as you put it, "tinker with your own mental programming and subroutines."  But I have to wonder if sigils are so problematic, then what technique is acceptable?  Yoga?  Hypnotism?  Sheer willpower?  You may be right that sigils are a crutch for the weak minded, but I think you make a mistake in the assumption that any of us are somehow strong-minded.

2. snorting crystal meth (as opposed to using your own willpower) is an effective, if distasteful, method of staying awake all night to study/work/whatever. Just because this method turns you into a raving tweak zombie does not mean the result of staying awake all night is unreal or less valid.

I agree, but your analogy is not very apt. The problem with crystal meth is that it's very bad for your health, the costs are generally considered to outweigh the benefits.  This detriment to your health does not render the result of staying up for a week "less valid" but the costs to your health, social life, etc certainly do render it less valid.  You can make the same sort of argument about sigils, but they aren't going to rot your teeth.  I would say that to a true believer, sigils may offer enough comfort to outweigh the cost (whatever social stigma is attached to practicing magic, e.g. Mr. Hustle thinks you're weak minded).  But in the end it's really just a cost-benefit analysis.

[The Johnny]

I just don't believe that I need smoke and mirrors and self-deceit to interact and/or tinker with my subconscious.[...] and frankly, if it does exist and won't talk to me until I placate it with some arcane bullshit, I don't want to be friends with it anyway.

You cannot simply write off the efficacy of "magic" by calling it "smoke and mirrors and self-deceit."  Self deception implies that there is an objective truth to begin with.  Again assuming that the subconscious exists, it's folly to think that you can sit your sub-conscious down and talk things over with it like an adult.  

And really no assumptions need to be made: even if a Freudian subconscious doesn't actually exist as such, the question is the effectiveness of certain methods, not whether or not the methods are distasteful.  Just because these methods distort or modify the thing-in-itself does not mean the result in unreal (or at least that the unrealness is no less valid, depending on your definition of reality).

1. yes, I most certainly can. because it's NOT fucking "magic" at all. I'm not writing off the efficacy of tinkering with your own mental programming and subroutines, I'm saying that you don't need to trick yourself into being able to interface directly with your own mind. You can just decide to do it and then, y'know, DO it. Without rituals, incantations, sigils, or any of the other crutches of the weak-minded.

2. snorting crystal meth (as opposed to using your own willpower) is an effective, if distasteful, method of staying awake all night to study/work/whatever. Just because this method turns you into a raving tweak zombie does not mean the result of staying awake all night is unreal or less valid.

CRYSTAL METH MUST BE MADE OF MAGICAL CRYSTALS THEN 1!111

[The Johnny]

Subconcsious seems to be an outdated term and some of my teachers frown upon it.

Im gonna look into it.

[The Johnny]

The idea of the 'subconscious' as a powerful or potent agency has allowed the term to become prominent in the New Age and self-help literatures, in which investigating or controlling its supposed knowledge or power is seen as advantageous. The 'subconscious' may also be supposed to contain (thanks to the influence of the psychoanalytic tradition) any number of primitive or otherwise disavowed instincts, urges, desires and thoughts.

If someone talks of subconsciousness, I cannot tell whether he means the term topographically -- to indicate something lying in the mind beneath consciousness -- or qualitatively -- to indicate another consciousness, a subterranean one, as it were. He is probably not clear about any of it. The only trustworthy antithesis is between conscious and unconscious.

I assume he meant unconscious?

[BabylonHoruv]

I didn't repeat the "spell" 3 times a day for 30 days. I evoked a sigil once on the topic.. which is designed specifically to "put it in my own mind".. or rather to get it past my consciopus mind and embed it in the subconscious mind... exactly as laid out by the various authors mentioned earlier.

ALL of it is trappings but they do more than make is seem mystical and magical. Those "trappings" are semantic symbols, connections between physical reality and ideas in the mind of the practitioner. They perform the same job that other semantic tools perform, they represent a concept. The mapmaker is not an idiot, he knows that the blue squiggle line he just drew is NOT the river, but it can represent the river. The little humpy bits aren't The Mountains, but they can represent the mountains.

The "props" in magic work in a similar fashion... they're symbols, representations, psychological handles which we use to modify our consciousness.

this is no different from, say, a professional baseball player who is convinced he can't throw his curveball effectively unless he brushes his teeth between innings.

in other words, needless superstition.

Except that if he doesn't brush his teeth he doesn't throw that curve ball.  So it's not needless, it's practical.

Shame for him that he shackled himself in that way.

[BabylonHoruv]

You have more to gain by being in control of your own mind than you do by playing what amounts to an elaborate game of "make the baby eat its food by pretending it's an airplane" with yourself.

problem is that, in a lot of respects, thats exactly how your subconscious mind works and if you're not affecting/communicating directly with the subconscious then you're only scratching the surface of what can be achieved.

thank you, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh.

now, anyone got any scientifically valid counterpoints to my post?

*giggling because that's the guru that is the whole reason I grew up on a commune.  A bunch of people left to follow him, thus making room for my parents*

[BabylonHoruv]

I just don't believe that I need smoke and mirrors and self-deceit to interact and/or tinker with my subconscious.[...] and frankly, if it does exist and won't talk to me until I placate it with some arcane bullshit, I don't want to be friends with it anyway.

You cannot simply write off the efficacy of "magic" by calling it "smoke and mirrors and self-deceit."  Self deception implies that there is an objective truth to begin with.  Again assuming that the subconscious exists, it's folly to think that you can sit your sub-conscious down and talk things over with it like an adult.  

And really no assumptions need to be made: even if a Freudian subconscious doesn't actually exist as such, the question is the effectiveness of certain methods, not whether or not the methods are distasteful.  Just because these methods distort or modify the thing-in-itself does not mean the result in unreal (or at least that the unrealness is no less valid, depending on your definition of reality).

1. yes, I most certainly can. because it's NOT fucking "magic" at all. I'm not writing off the efficacy of tinkering with your own mental programming and subroutines, I'm saying that you don't need to trick yourself into being able to interface directly with your own mind. You can just decide to do it and then, y'know, DO it. Without rituals, incantations, sigils, or any of the other crutches of the weak-minded.

2. snorting crystal meth (as opposed to using your own willpower) is an effective, if distasteful, method of staying awake all night to study/work/whatever. Just because this method turns you into a raving tweak zombie does not mean the result of staying awake all night is unreal or less valid.

Care to share some methods?

[East Coast Hustle]

I didn't repeat the "spell" 3 times a day for 30 days. I evoked a sigil once on the topic.. which is designed specifically to "put it in my own mind".. or rather to get it past my consciopus mind and embed it in the subconscious mind... exactly as laid out by the various authors mentioned earlier.

ALL of it is trappings but they do more than make is seem mystical and magical. Those "trappings" are semantic symbols, connections between physical reality and ideas in the mind of the practitioner. They perform the same job that other semantic tools perform, they represent a concept. The mapmaker is not an idiot, he knows that the blue squiggle line he just drew is NOT the river, but it can represent the river. The little humpy bits aren't The Mountains, but they can represent the mountains.

The "props" in magic work in a similar fashion... they're symbols, representations, psychological handles which we use to modify our consciousness.

this is no different from, say, a professional baseball player who is convinced he can't throw his curveball effectively unless he brushes his teeth between innings.

in other words, needless superstition.

Except that if he doesn't brush his teeth he doesn't throw that curve ball.  So it's not needless, it's practical.

Shame for him that he shackled himself in that way.

yeah, but he COULD still throw the curveball if he weren't a weak-minded and superstitious dupe, so it IS needless.

[East Coast Hustle]

I just don't believe that I need smoke and mirrors and self-deceit to interact and/or tinker with my subconscious.[...] and frankly, if it does exist and won't talk to me until I placate it with some arcane bullshit, I don't want to be friends with it anyway.

You cannot simply write off the efficacy of "magic" by calling it "smoke and mirrors and self-deceit."  Self deception implies that there is an objective truth to begin with.  Again assuming that the subconscious exists, it's folly to think that you can sit your sub-conscious down and talk things over with it like an adult. 

And really no assumptions need to be made: even if a Freudian subconscious doesn't actually exist as such, the question is the effectiveness of certain methods, not whether or not the methods are distasteful.  Just because these methods distort or modify the thing-in-itself does not mean the result in unreal (or at least that the unrealness is no less valid, depending on your definition of reality).

1. yes, I most certainly can. because it's NOT fucking "magic" at all. I'm not writing off the efficacy of tinkering with your own mental programming and subroutines, I'm saying that you don't need to trick yourself into being able to interface directly with your own mind. You can just decide to do it and then, y'know, DO it. Without rituals, incantations, sigils, or any of the other crutches of the weak-minded.

2. snorting crystal meth (as opposed to using your own willpower) is an effective, if distasteful, method of staying awake all night to study/work/whatever. Just because this method turns you into a raving tweak zombie does not mean the result of staying awake all night is unreal or less valid.

Care to share some methods?

methods of what? deciding to do something and then doing it?

[BabylonHoruv]

I just don't believe that I need smoke and mirrors and self-deceit to interact and/or tinker with my subconscious.[...] and frankly, if it does exist and won't talk to me until I placate it with some arcane bullshit, I don't want to be friends with it anyway.

You cannot simply write off the efficacy of "magic" by calling it "smoke and mirrors and self-deceit."  Self deception implies that there is an objective truth to begin with.  Again assuming that the subconscious exists, it's folly to think that you can sit your sub-conscious down and talk things over with it like an adult. 

And really no assumptions need to be made: even if a Freudian subconscious doesn't actually exist as such, the question is the effectiveness of certain methods, not whether or not the methods are distasteful.  Just because these methods distort or modify the thing-in-itself does not mean the result in unreal (or at least that the unrealness is no less valid, depending on your definition of reality).

1. yes, I most certainly can. because it's NOT fucking "magic" at all. I'm not writing off the efficacy of tinkering with your own mental programming and subroutines, I'm saying that you don't need to trick yourself into being able to interface directly with your own mind. You can just decide to do it and then, y'know, DO it. Without rituals, incantations, sigils, or any of the other crutches of the weak-minded.

2. snorting crystal meth (as opposed to using your own willpower) is an effective, if distasteful, method of staying awake all night to study/work/whatever. Just because this method turns you into a raving tweak zombie does not mean the result of staying awake all night is unreal or less valid.

Care to share some methods?

methods of what? deciding to do something and then doing it?

Yes, when that something is interfacing directly with your own mind.

[East Coast Hustle]

OK, serious answer: my personal method is a combination of willpower and self-discipline. no need to trick myself into anything, just making a decision to alter the way I think about/perceive/react to whatever the relevant subject is and being constantly mindful to follow through on that decision. I guess if you need me to invent a term for it I'd call it self-reinforcement, but there's certainly no bullshit or trickery involved and I have always been able to effect the change of mindset that I desire provided I use my will and self-discipline to do so. I've also found that, as with most everything, it gets easier with repetition.

[Jasper]

My methods are similar, but I call it bloody-mindedness.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Willpower is one of the most effective faculties to possess. No end of "genuine" magical literature will agree with this very fact. The tarot for example has a whole suite dedicated only to swords or willpower as the symbol represents.

[Shai Hulud]

[M]y personal method is a combination of willpower and self-discipline. no need to trick myself into anything, just making a decision to alter the way I think... but there's certainly no bullshit or trickery involved and I have always been able to effect the change of mindset that I desire provided I use my will and self-discipline to do so.

You're just using different words.  Trick/alter, what's the difference?  The point is that your method of self-reinforcement is no different than a sigil (incidentally, I have no idea what a sigil is, like a circle or something?).

You call it self discipline, other people call it the Holy Spirit, other people call it sigils.  You call those other people weak minded, but they are no more weak minded than you are.  You rely on your "Self" and that Self's discipline, and this is a nice and tidy piece of bullshit in its own right.  What is a self anyway?

You have your illusions, and people who do magic have their own.  It all does get easier with repetition, sure.  But when patting yourself on the back like you're some kind of John Galt self-made wunderkind that figured out something that is eluding the rest of us, that's just your own special brand of self-deception.  Enjoy!