Magic: Who thinks they can do it, and why otherwise intelligent people buy it.

[East Coast Hustle]

That people feel the need to say derogatory things about other people's intellectual/spiritual/emotional practices is pathetic, and more a reflection of their own insecurity and grasping need to feel a sense of superiority over others than of anything else.

or it's possible that those people genuinely view the use of self-deception and the attachment of needless ritual to the idea of internal self-improvement as a dangerous and destructive force in human society and it has nothing at all to do with childish power games or ego trips.

just saying.

[Shai Hulud]

There is absolutely no reason not to have confidence in the scientific method, aka hypothesis testing.

Ok, perhaps this is where we diverge, but I need some further clarification from you.  What sort of confidence are you talking about?  100% certainty?  High degree of probability?  Where do you get these ideas from?

If people misuse a tool out of misunderstanding that is not a fault of the tool. It's pretty damn stupid to blame a knife for a stab wound.

It's also pretty damn hard to stab somebody without a knife.  Just sayin.

Likewise, it's pretty damn stupid to blame the scientific method for people's misunderstanding of such things as hypothesis, falsifiability, experiment, correlation and causation.

I don't recall that I did this.  I do blame people's inherent stupidity for the misunderstanding of the scientific method though.  I suppose it's inevitable.

Not that the human element can ever be removed from the method and render it completely objective (Cf. Karl Popper), but it can be accounted for. Hypotheses can be tested and retested.

Popper and all that sort of positivism notwithstanding, we can never surmount Cartesian doubt.  For all we know, an evil deceiver might be stringing us along the whole way, or maybe just stringing us along sometimes.  Science is based on the hypothesis that the universe isn't messing with us, that there are consistent rules that we can ascertain.  I like this and hope it's True, but man, I just don't know.

Scientific understanding has gotten us pretty far, btw. Where did magical thinking get us? Oh right, the European Dark Ages. Just think if the Library of Alexandria had survived and the Catholic church had not taken over Europe, where would we be today.

How very Eurocentric of you.  Magical thinking also brought us thousands of years of Asian civilization, Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Averroes and the Islamic golden age that took place concurrent with the European dark ages and without which we wouldn't even have science.  Not to mention that superstition had nothing to do with the burning of the library at Alexandria, that was just a regular old war.  Also, without the Catholic Church we would have lost much of the corpus of classical texts.  Superstition is, in fact, good for something, even under your definition of good.

Exciting, that. Reality is cool enough, special enough, amazing enough without layering on extra bullshit.

My point remains that whatever you think Reality is, is your own particular illusion about it.  It's not about what is cool or exciting, but what is useful to you, whatever you happen to find convincing.  This says more about you than about Truth.

Note, I don't really care what you do in your spare time to fulfill your spiritual practice. I do care you have the wrong idea about science, however, and thats why I felt the need to address your statement. It sounds similar to something Depak Chopra would say, and that's not a compliment.

I'm not really familiar with Chopra, but don't worry, I wasn't expecting any compliments.  I don't know where you get off telling me I have the wrong idea about science, because that's patently incorrect.  I couldn't have a better understanding, because I always keep its limitations at the forefront of my mind.  It's folly to do otherwise.  

[East Coast Hustle]

I also think it says something that so many of the proponents of this sort of thinking, when confronted with reasonable arguments against it, withdraw to a position of "you just think you're so fucking special, you big jerk" rather than respond with reasoned counter-arguments in defense of their position.

that's not really directed at this board or this thread (though there is some of it going on here), but it is a tendency I have noticed in general anytime this sort of thing is discussed.

sorry, folks, but all peoples' beliefs, views, and methods are NOT equally valid. We may all be idiot monkeys, but there's a separation between those who at least WANT to get as close to objective truth as possible and those who see value in untruth that makes them feel comfortable.

[Epimetheus]

That people feel the need to say derogatory things about other people's intellectual/spiritual/emotional practices is pathetic, and more a reflection of their own insecurity and grasping need to feel a sense of superiority over others than of anything else.

or it's possible that those people genuinely view the use of self-deception and the attachment of needless ritual to the idea of internal self-improvement as a dangerous and destructive force in human society and it has nothing at all to do with childish power games or ego trips.

just saying.

I took what she said as meaning just insulting the practices is stupid, whereas discussing them, intelligently and openly, to expose stupidity (on either party's part) is fine.

If someone I care about believes something I think is stupid, I will try to discuss/argue with them about it.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

That people feel the need to say derogatory things about other people's intellectual/spiritual/emotional practices is pathetic, and more a reflection of their own insecurity and grasping need to feel a sense of superiority over others than of anything else.

or it's possible that those people genuinely view the use of self-deception and the attachment of needless ritual to the idea of internal self-improvement as a dangerous and destructive force in human society and it has nothing at all to do with childish power games or ego trips.

just saying.

or it's possible that those people genuinely view homosexuality and the practice of gay sex with the idea of emotional attachment as a dangerous and destructive force in human society and it has nothing at all to do with childish power games or ego trips.

just saying.

[Shai Hulud]

We may all be idiot monkeys, but there's a separation between those who at least WANT to get as close to objective truth as possible and those who see value in untruth that makes them feel comfortable.

My contention is that those who follow the scientific method unquestioningly fall into the latter category.  Sure, it feels nice to think we have some sort of a tool that can actually lead us to objective Truth.  Wow, what a comforting sensation that must be, but the fact is the thing-in-itself will always be behind a veil that science cannot penetrate.  Science also cannot say anything about the subjective, "qualia" if you will.  This is a domain where science cannot trespass, and we haven't got a tool to tell us about the complete Truth of the matter.  We have something that is very useful, but you're just an idiot monkey looking for comfort if you think it comes anywhere nearer the Truth than magic.  That's because being "near" the truth is a totally arbitrary distinction, predicated on usefulness.  Unless you've actually arrived at Truth, what good is it to be "near" it?  How can you tell?  What the fuck does that even mean?

[Bu🤠ns]

Ok, Hustle, that was a thoughtful response and I appreciate it.  I can't say that I disagree with you here, superstition can be a very, very destructive thing.  My beef, however, is that I see the same sort of dangerous tendencies present in the scientific/rationalist mindset that is so pervasive today.  I've always been one to defend the underdog. For the vast majority of human history the underdog was reason, but that has switched, and I truly think we're witnessing the same thing with science.  I see people putting way too much faith in the scientific method.  Not that it isn't useful, probably the most useful tool we've got to get near the Truth.  Maybe even very near the Truth.  But getting at the truth is an infinite regress, and we can never get there, so it's an equally dangerous mistake to think scientific thinking will get us there any better than magical thinking.  Maybe more useful for whatever our purposes may be, but not objectively better.  Anyway, glad we're talking again, I can never stay mad at somebody with such great taste in avatars.

We could rephrase this statement as "But getting at the truth is an infinite regress, and we can never get there, so it's an equally dangerous mistake to think objective thinking will get us there any better than subjective thinking."

Again I think it depends on the situation.  See you could even merge the two.  Take memory techniques.

The Loci Method where one takes an imaginary walk around one's house (for instance) and then say you wanted to remember a grocery list and you attribute each item on the list with each room.  That particular mind hack involves a subjective experience that culminates in practical objective results.  

This type of trick or hack could easily be argued as "magical thinking"--but when you find out the trick, there's nothing really magical about it at all.  I'd for dropping that word all together.

The tools of the scientific method could be easily adapted for the personal subjective experience.  But due to the subjective nature of the situation you'll never get successfully peer reviewed which is why a rational degree of skepticism is essential.  The problem I've found is that most magicians on forums I've found never bother and feel it necessary to barf their 'truth' all over anybody who will listen.

[East Coast Hustle]

That people feel the need to say derogatory things about other people's intellectual/spiritual/emotional practices is pathetic, and more a reflection of their own insecurity and grasping need to feel a sense of superiority over others than of anything else.

or it's possible that those people genuinely view the use of self-deception and the attachment of needless ritual to the idea of internal self-improvement as a dangerous and destructive force in human society and it has nothing at all to do with childish power games or ego trips.

just saying.

or it's possible that those people genuinely view homosexuality and the practice of gay sex to the idea of emotional attachment as a dangerous and destructive force in human society and it has nothing at all to do with childish power games or ego trips.

just saying.

I don't see how that's even remotely a valid analogy.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

So this board is essentially the equivalent of venganza.org, now. Just a facade for atheism.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Peedee forums; where open disparagement of anything resembling religion or spiritual practice is A-OK!

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Peedee forums: Where if you're not an atheist like Faust and ECH, we will call you names. Because we are awesome and enlightened, and you are a monkey.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Peedee forums: Be just like us, or else!

[Bu🤠ns]

Also, I think the 'buying it' part of the OP is another key point.  Just because a person might attain certain results (whatever that happens to mean to him) that doesn't necessarily mean that the results are REALLY real.  But 'results' happen whether it's coincidence, or Lo5s or whatever and someone thinks "WOOT! i'm a wizard now!" and they focus on the results and forget the process.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I suspect that Faust is the only Really Real Discordian in the universe.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Probably the only Really Enlightened Human, as well.