Magic: Who thinks they can do it, and why otherwise intelligent people buy it.

[Cramulus]

yeah I thought I was adding a meaningful point, but now I really do feel like I was wasting my time. thanks for clearing that up.

[LMNO]

Thirty.  Seven.  Pages.


Holy hell.


I think I had a point to make, about TWELVE FRIGGIN PAGES ago.


All right.



Question: Can a person metaprogram without using the trappings of occultism, religion, or magic?
Answer: 95% confidence in the answer of "yes".  Please see the Angel Tech thread, where I am attempting to translate the rituals and meditations into secular language.

Question: What's the harm in using occult trappings when trying to metaprogram?
Answer: If a person understands that the trappings are merely tools with which to metaprogram, nothing.  However, far too often many people do not understand that it is the body that is controlling the metaprogramming process, and not the tools.  They begin to believe (or never stopped beliving) that the Religion/Ritual/Magic Wand has a Truth and a Signifigance that is greater than the body's own ability to reprogram itself.

Question: Doesn't that run headfirst into Atheism?
Answer: No, because this only concerns Known Things.  Weird Shit that cannot yet be explained, or may never be explained, is not covered. 

Question: Hold on, isn't that the "god of the gaps" argument?
Answer: Well, they have to live somewhere...

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Thirty.  Seven.  Pages.


Holy hell.


I think I had a point to make, about TWELVE FRIGGIN PAGES ago.


All right.



Question: Can a person metaprogram without using the trappings of occultism, religion, or magic?
Answer: 95% confidence in the answer of "yes".  Please see the Angel Tech thread, where I am attempting to translate the rituals and meditations into secular language.

Question: What's the harm in using occult trappings when trying to metaprogram?
Answer: If a person understands that the trappings are merely tools with which to metaprogram, nothing.  However, far too often many people do not understand that it is the body that is controlling the metaprogramming process, and not the tools.  They begin to believe (or never stopped beliving) that the Religion/Ritual/Magic Wand has a Truth and a Signifigance that is greater than the body's own ability to reprogram itself.

Question: Doesn't that run headfirst into Atheism?
Answer: No, because this only concerns Known Things.  Weird Shit that cannot yet be explained, or may never be explained, is not covered. 

Question: Hold on, isn't that the "god of the gaps" argument?
Answer: Well, they have to live somewhere...

IAWTC

[LMNO]

Oddly enough, in this case your endorsement does not help.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Oddly enough, in this case your endorsement does not help.

Which seems ironic since you simply stated the position I've held on the topic for years.

[LMNO]

If that's true, you may want to work on the clarity of your written communication.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

If that's true, you may want to work on the clarity of your written communication.

Have I stated something here which is counter to what you stated?

[Shai Hulud]

Guy Incognito, the textbook example against utilitarianism:
[...]
utlitarianism says again to let 1 person die.

You know, these are some interesting examples you bring up, particularly how they highlight the intuitive difference between example A and example B.  I think every Kantian would agree with A but probably none would go with B, but I'm at a loss to articulate any moral difference between the two scenarios.

There are the LOTR fans, who just want to be elves and have their own unicorns.

Uh, is there any other reason to do magixks?

[Shai Hulud]

It's been a few years since I've read it, but one flaw in the scientific process (not method) was documented in Laboratory Life: The Social Construction of Scientific Facts by Latour and Woolgar.

long story short

Laboratory Life was written by people trying to understand science from a sociological point of view. One of the points they made is that when something is on its way to "Fact hood", there might be a lot of uncertainty. Maybe the data is off, maybe the results are skewed, maybe it's only accepted by 60% of the scientists.

Once that "fact" has been cited by other scientists and built upon, all the uncertainty surrounding its creation evaporates. The "fact", divorced from the environment which led to its "discovery"*, becomes something we are certain about.

They also discuss the cycles of credibility - they examine credit and credibility as a form of currency that scientists use in order to change the "facticity" of a hypothesis. One flaw in the scientific process may be that if a scientist who doesn't have a very good track record makes an amazing discovery, other scientists are less likely to cite it.




* or "creation", if you prefer

Unfortunately that seems the largest flaw in the system, if Joe the plumber comes up with a consistent unified field theory he would have a hard time getting anyone to read it because he doesn't have a string of letters after his name.

These are good points Cramulus and Faust make, and represent a bigger practical flaw in the scientific process than any sort of evil deceiver argument is ever likely to.  But I think there is something fundamentally different about these two things, insofar as we can theoretical overcome the human error element of science (maybe by brainwashing people or with robot scientists or whatever), whereas the epistemological shortcomings of science, while it might never hamper practical results, cannot be overcome even in theory.

[hooplala]

Holy shit. 

This is why I avoid the magic threads. 

Well, that, and it always gives me a mental image of Leonardo DiCaprio introducing David fucking Blaine.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Joe the Plumber isn't going to develop a unified field theory, anyway.

[East Coast Hustle]

Question: What's the harm in using occult trappings when trying to metaprogram?
Answer: If a person understands that the trappings are merely tools with which to metaprogram, nothing.  However, far too often many people do not understand that it is the body that is controlling the metaprogramming process, and not the tools.  They begin to believe (or never stopped beliving) that the Religion/Ritual/Magic Wand has a Truth and a Signifigance that is greater than the body's own ability to reprogram itself.

fuck yeah. that's what I've been trying to say for the last 20 pages, but I'm just not that eloquent.

[Shai Hulud]

Question: What's the harm in using occult trappings when trying to metaprogram?
Answer: If a person understands that the trappings are merely tools with which to metaprogram, nothing.  However, far too often many people do not understand that it is the body that is controlling the metaprogramming process, and not the tools.  They begin to believe (or never stopped beliving) that the Religion/Ritual/Magic Wand has a Truth and a Signifigance that is greater than the body's own ability to reprogram itself.

fuck yeah. that's what I've been trying to say for the last 20 pages, but I'm just not that eloquent.

No argument there.  One point I would like to make though, is that most of the time if a person understands that the trappings are merely tools with which to metaprogram then the tools aren't going to work.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

YOU ARE ALL TOTALLY INCOMPETENT

THIS THREAD IS THE CLOSEST THING TO CONTENT ON THE BOARD ATM

THAT MAKES ME WANT TO DIE.

Right. So just what we need is drunk posts in our treasured last bastion of content on this forum.

What Faust said, go to bed.

You're pretty too.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Question: What's the harm in using occult trappings when trying to metaprogram?
Answer: If a person understands that the trappings are merely tools with which to metaprogram, nothing.  However, far too often many people do not understand that it is the body that is controlling the metaprogramming process, and not the tools.  They begin to believe (or never stopped beliving) that the Religion/Ritual/Magic Wand has a Truth and a Signifigance that is greater than the body's own ability to reprogram itself.

fuck yeah. that's what I've been trying to say for the last 20 pages, but I'm just not that eloquent.

Sure... but its true of all systems. Discordians can get trapped in 23PINEALOMGZLAWLO5'S. Materialists can get trapped in "Science or it ain't real". Psychologists, depending on the particular school of study may accept only that school of thought.

Humans confuse the map and the territory all the time. It's not unique to 'magic'.