Magic: Who thinks they can do it, and why otherwise intelligent people buy it.

[BabylonHoruv]

Right, because all worldviews are merely reactions to our fears and desires and everybody creates fairylands to have solace.

Well said!

Im sorry, that was sarcastic.

We all know we are gonna die, and i think the majority fears it.

Religion is a rationalization for that fear (when we die, we go to this big garden with candy and sluts).

And i only get this big fucking anxiety that fuels my cigarrette addiction and hedonistic behaviour.

Sounds like the religious approach is more effective.  Even if false.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

shut up, go to bed.

Oh for fuck's sake, the wallpaper has something to say.

You make a lot of posts but its rare that you ever say anything. I actively ignore this place whenever I am busy, call me wallpaper if you want.

Faust, I have a compliment for you. You are a pretty thing.

Go to bed.

Oh, did the pretty thing wake up for a moment?

not really, keeping it civil drunken wench, for your benefit.

Oh really?

Does the bouquet think he's a match for me?

Do you want to find out, pretty thing?

I would enjoy pinning you.

[BabylonHoruv]

OK, serious answer: my personal method is a combination of willpower and self-discipline. no need to trick myself into anything, just making a decision to alter the way I think about/perceive/react to whatever the relevant subject is and being constantly mindful to follow through on that decision. I guess if you need me to invent a term for it I'd call it self-reinforcement, but there's certainly no bullshit or trickery involved and I have always been able to effect the change of mindset that I desire provided I use my will and self-discipline to do so. I've also found that, as with most everything, it gets easier with repetition.

Thank you for explaining.  I don't think that would work for me, but a layer or two of bullshit generally does and I think as long as I remember afterwards that it was bullshit that's ok.

[East Coast Hustle]

Question: What's the harm in using occult trappings when trying to metaprogram?
Answer: If a person understands that the trappings are merely tools with which to metaprogram, nothing.  However, far too often many people do not understand that it is the body that is controlling the metaprogramming process, and not the tools.  They begin to believe (or never stopped beliving) that the Religion/Ritual/Magic Wand has a Truth and a Signifigance that is greater than the body's own ability to reprogram itself.

fuck yeah. that's what I've been trying to say for the last 20 pages, but I'm just not that eloquent.

No argument there.  One point I would like to make though, is that most of the time if a person understands that the trappings are merely tools with which to metaprogram then the tools aren't going to work.

that's just as well. If that person has any sort of worthwhile brain function, that will be the point at which they realize they never NEEDED the trappings in the first place. Though if it makes you feel better, I understand why you're so bent on not having to confront that scenario yourself.

ETA: I don't know if you're aware of this, but you really come off as a passive-aggressive dickweed.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Question: What's the harm in using occult trappings when trying to metaprogram?
Answer: If a person understands that the trappings are merely tools with which to metaprogram, nothing.  However, far too often many people do not understand that it is the body that is controlling the metaprogramming process, and not the tools.  They begin to believe (or never stopped beliving) that the Religion/Ritual/Magic Wand has a Truth and a Signifigance that is greater than the body's own ability to reprogram itself.

fuck yeah. that's what I've been trying to say for the last 20 pages, but I'm just not that eloquent.

Oh hey, I missed this. Well said.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Question: What's the harm in using occult trappings when trying to metaprogram?
Answer: If a person understands that the trappings are merely tools with which to metaprogram, nothing.  However, far too often many people do not understand that it is the body that is controlling the metaprogramming process, and not the tools.  They begin to believe (or never stopped beliving) that the Religion/Ritual/Magic Wand has a Truth and a Signifigance that is greater than the body's own ability to reprogram itself.

fuck yeah. that's what I've been trying to say for the last 20 pages, but I'm just not that eloquent.

No argument there.  One point I would like to make though, is that most of the time if a person understands that the trappings are merely tools with which to metaprogram then the tools aren't going to work.

that's just as well. If that person has any sort of worthwhile brain function, that will be the point at which they realize they never NEEDED the trappings in the first place. Though if it makes you feel better, I understand why you're so bent on not having to confront that scenario yourself.

A large difference exists between something being a tool and something being unnecessary. After all, you can hammer a nail with your forehead, but a hammer is less painful.

[LMNO]

There is a much lesser chance that genocide will break out if someone decides to use a mallet, however.

I'm not one for stretching a metaphor, but equating a hammer with a belief system is a little weak.

[Shai Hulud]

that's just as well. If that person has any sort of worthwhile brain function, that will be the point at which they realize they never NEEDED the trappings in the first place. Though if it makes you feel better, I understand why you're so bent on not having to confront that scenario yourself.

Confront what scenario?  I just disagree with you that some people haven't got worthwhile brain function or whatever you want to call it.  I've already confronted all the things we're talking about.

ETA: I don't know if you're aware of this, but you really come off as a passive-aggressive dickweed.

That isn't my intention, I'm not sure why you feel that way.  I guess I'm alternating between trying to firmly make some points and trying (unsuccessfully) to be funny.

[Shai Hulud]

There is a much lesser chance that genocide will break out if someone decides to use a mallet, however.

Is superstition really that dangerous?  People seem to have an easy enough time committing heinous acts when they aren't putting on funny hats.

[East Coast Hustle]

Question: What's the harm in using occult trappings when trying to metaprogram?
Answer: If a person understands that the trappings are merely tools with which to metaprogram, nothing.  However, far too often many people do not understand that it is the body that is controlling the metaprogramming process, and not the tools.  They begin to believe (or never stopped beliving) that the Religion/Ritual/Magic Wand has a Truth and a Signifigance that is greater than the body's own ability to reprogram itself.

fuck yeah. that's what I've been trying to say for the last 20 pages, but I'm just not that eloquent.

Sure... but its true of all systems. Discordians can get trapped in 23PINEALOMGZLAWLO5'S. Materialists can get trapped in "Science or it ain't real". Psychologists, depending on the particular school of study may accept only that school of thought.

Humans confuse the map and the territory all the time. It's not unique to 'magic'.

"magic" (and other supernatural-based fraeworks) are different in that to be effective they require the user to mistake the map for the territory.

The fact that a tiny percent of the people who use this framework are able to both use it effectively AND remember afterwards to discontinue mistaking the map for the territory does not impart any validity to the framework, it just speaks to the ability of some otherwise intelligent people to blindly fall into their own confirmation bias.

It's like the people who are so smart that they trick themselves into endorsing ideas like "ethical eugenics", "benevolent dictatorships", "marxism", and the like but are too self-centered to understand the effect that propagation of those ideas is going to have when applied to a large number of primates.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Question: What's the harm in using occult trappings when trying to metaprogram?
Answer: If a person understands that the trappings are merely tools with which to metaprogram, nothing.  However, far too often many people do not understand that it is the body that is controlling the metaprogramming process, and not the tools.  They begin to believe (or never stopped beliving) that the Religion/Ritual/Magic Wand has a Truth and a Signifigance that is greater than the body's own ability to reprogram itself.

fuck yeah. that's what I've been trying to say for the last 20 pages, but I'm just not that eloquent.

An idiot is going to believe all sorts of stupid stuff about pretty much anything you put in front of them. Doesn't invalidate the significance of the thing they misunderstood from the outset. Plus it potentially makes the idiot more obvious, since they're likely to be wearing really dumb looking shit and talking inane, pseudo mystiqual bollix. Win-win in my book.

However, having a go at people who you should by now realise aren't these sorts of idiots, on the strength of what the idiots get up to seems a bit harsh IMO.

Like pointing and saying "ha, ha, you like dumb shit". I don't point and laugh at you for claiming to read a book just because most of the books currently being read are fucking Harry Potter and the Twilight series, do I?

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

There is a much lesser chance that genocide will break out if someone decides to use a mallet, however.

I'm not one for stretching a metaphor, but equating a hammer with a belief system is a little weak.

I wasn't talking about the 'belief system' I was talking about the tools and props. Candles and Athame don't start Genocide either... Humans start genocide and they'll do that as long as they follow a monkey that tells them to. Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, Atheists have all participated in genocide.

Laying the horror at the doorstep of some props seems absurd to me.

It's like the people who are so smart that they trick themselves into endorsing ideas like "ethical eugenics", "benevolent dictatorships", "marxism", and the like but are too self-centered to understand the effect that propagation of those ideas is going to have when applied to a large number of primates.

Has someone been advocating that everyone use Magic? I missed that post.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Question: What's the harm in using occult trappings when trying to metaprogram?
Answer: If a person understands that the trappings are merely tools with which to metaprogram, nothing.  However, far too often many people do not understand that it is the body that is controlling the metaprogramming process, and not the tools.  They begin to believe (or never stopped beliving) that the Religion/Ritual/Magic Wand has a Truth and a Signifigance that is greater than the body's own ability to reprogram itself.

fuck yeah. that's what I've been trying to say for the last 20 pages, but I'm just not that eloquent.

No argument there.  One point I would like to make though, is that most of the time if a person understands that the trappings are merely tools with which to metaprogram then the tools aren't going to work.

that's just as well. If that person has any sort of worthwhile brain function, that will be the point at which they realize they never NEEDED the trappings in the first place. Though if it makes you feel better, I understand why you're so bent on not having to confront that scenario yourself.

ETA: I don't know if you're aware of this, but you really come off as a passive-aggressive dickweed.

A. Dickweed. YES.

B. I challenge you to truly enter the altered state created by group ritual, with no trappings whatsoever.

C. marijuana.

[LMNO]

"magic" (and other supernatural-based fraeworks) are different in that to be effective they require the user to mistake the map for the territory.

I've been trying to figure out a way to say that.  Now I don't have to.  Cheers.

There is a much lesser chance that genocide will break out if someone decides to use a mallet, however.

Is superstition really that dangerous?  People seem to have an easy enough time committing heinous acts when they aren't putting on funny hats.

So, your argument is, "people do horrible shit, why don't we just say it's ok for them to do it?"

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

"magic" (and other supernatural-based fraeworks) are different in that to be effective they require the user to mistake the map for the territory.

I've been trying to figure out a way to say that.  Now I don't have to.  Cheers.

There is a much lesser chance that genocide will break out if someone decides to use a mallet, however.

Is superstition really that dangerous?  People seem to have an easy enough time committing heinous acts when they aren't putting on funny hats.

So, your argument is, "people do horrible shit, why don't we just say it's ok for them to do it?"

I think his argument was "People do horrible shit, the props make no difference".