Magic: Who thinks they can do it, and why otherwise intelligent people buy it.

[Shai Hulud]

So, your argument is, "people do horrible shit, why don't we just say it's ok for them to do it?"

Not at all, my argument is a variation on the old "guns don't kill people, people kill people" argument.  In this case replace guns with religion or magic and there you go.  Like somebody else just said, Atheists commit genocide too, look at Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot.

[East Coast Hustle]

There is a much lesser chance that genocide will break out if someone decides to use a mallet, however.

I'm not one for stretching a metaphor, but equating a hammer with a belief system is a little weak.

I wasn't talking about the 'belief system' I was talking about the tools and props. Candles and Athame don't start Genocide either... Humans start genocide and they'll do that as long as they follow a monkey that tells them to. Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, Atheists have all participated in genocide.

Laying the horror at the doorstep of some props seems absurd to me.

It's like the people who are so smart that they trick themselves into endorsing ideas like "ethical eugenics", "benevolent dictatorships", "marxism", and the like but are too self-centered to understand the effect that propagation of those ideas is going to have when applied to a large number of primates.

Has someone been advocating that everyone use Magic? I missed that post.

no, you missed my point, which is that by perpetuating the acceptance of the framework through your personal validation of it, you are still handing out grenades to the monkeys. whether or not you require them to use it, you're providing them with a positive reference point for it. I'm not telling you you can't do it or that we should start censoring ideas, I'd defend your right to do whatever idiot shit you feel like to yourself until my dying breath, but it doesn't mean I agree with it or that I'm not going to challenge it and that is my primary reasoning for doing so.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

"magic" (and other supernatural-based fraeworks) are different in that to be effective they require the user to mistake the map for the territory.

THIS.

Thread is over.  Anything posted after this is dildoes.

[East Coast Hustle]

Question: What's the harm in using occult trappings when trying to metaprogram?
Answer: If a person understands that the trappings are merely tools with which to metaprogram, nothing.  However, far too often many people do not understand that it is the body that is controlling the metaprogramming process, and not the tools.  They begin to believe (or never stopped beliving) that the Religion/Ritual/Magic Wand has a Truth and a Signifigance that is greater than the body's own ability to reprogram itself.

fuck yeah. that's what I've been trying to say for the last 20 pages, but I'm just not that eloquent.

No argument there.  One point I would like to make though, is that most of the time if a person understands that the trappings are merely tools with which to metaprogram then the tools aren't going to work.

that's just as well. If that person has any sort of worthwhile brain function, that will be the point at which they realize they never NEEDED the trappings in the first place. Though if it makes you feel better, I understand why you're so bent on not having to confront that scenario yourself.

ETA: I don't know if you're aware of this, but you really come off as a passive-aggressive dickweed.

A. Dickweed. YES.

B. I challenge you to truly enter the altered state created by group ritual, with no trappings whatsoever.

C. marijuana.

1. total dickweed.

2. OK, but since I'm not going to believe I doubt I'll find it effective. I'll try though, for SCIENCE.

3. sure, a little, and I'd be happy to share it. you've got my digits.

[BabylonHoruv]

Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law.

Do you agree with him?

So, what does Kant have to say about negligent homocide?

My point was to see how far Guy Incognito was willing to take the objective morals viewpoint.

Kant's system is shitty because it does not take into account intention nor consequence.

So i guess youd get off the hook for a negligent homicide.

Theft cannot exist without intention.  Taking a loaf of bread from the supermarket is theft in some cases and not in others, and they are all about context and intent.  Unlike killing thieving is a social construct in many ways.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Dildoes.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

There is a much lesser chance that genocide will break out if someone decides to use a mallet, however.

I'm not one for stretching a metaphor, but equating a hammer with a belief system is a little weak.

I wasn't talking about the 'belief system' I was talking about the tools and props. Candles and Athame don't start Genocide either... Humans start genocide and they'll do that as long as they follow a monkey that tells them to. Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, Atheists have all participated in genocide.

Laying the horror at the doorstep of some props seems absurd to me.

It's like the people who are so smart that they trick themselves into endorsing ideas like "ethical eugenics", "benevolent dictatorships", "marxism", and the like but are too self-centered to understand the effect that propagation of those ideas is going to have when applied to a large number of primates.

Has someone been advocating that everyone use Magic? I missed that post.

no, you missed my point, which is that by perpetuating the acceptance of the framework through your personal validation of it, you are still handing out grenades to the monkeys. whether or not you require them to use it, you're providing them with a positive reference point for it. I'm not telling you you can't do it or that we should start censoring ideas, I'd defend your right to do whatever idiot shit you feel like to yourself until my dying breath, but it doesn't mean I agree with it or that I'm not going to challenge it and that is my primary reasoning for doing so.

So... "some dumb monkeys will screw themselves up" is your argument?

Cause, uh... I don't really give a fuck about most other monkeys... I'm busy trying to manage my own monkey.

However, if you're of a mind to worry about the other monkeys and their state of reality, I completely understand your position.

*insert dildos here*


EDIT: In fact... I hang out in various Pagan locations just to further fuck with the people that really really believe it for real. I've made monkeys do all sorts of 'rituals' that were entirely absurd.

[East Coast Hustle]

well, as soon as the other monkeys stop being able to negatively impact my life because of their state of reality, I'll stop caring about their state of reality.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Fraid I used to be bad for this too. I only evar handed out occult advice to idiots if I reckoned it would help them go completely batshit. I'm kind nasty that way. Never got into the whole notion of karma.

[LMNO]

well, as soon as the other monkeys stop being able to negatively impact my life because of their state of reality, I'll stop caring about their state of reality.

[P3nT4gR4m]

well, as soon as the other monkeys stop being able to negatively impact my life because of their state of reality, I'll stop caring about their state of reality.

I haz a spell for that 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Dildoes.

[Cain]

There is a much lesser chance that genocide will break out if someone decides to use a mallet, however.

Is superstition really that dangerous?  People seem to have an easy enough time committing heinous acts when they aren't putting on funny hats.

In which case it shouldnt be made even easier for them.

[Cain]

Dildoes.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

"magic" (and other supernatural-based fraeworks) are different in that to be effective they require the user to mistake the map for the territory.

I don't think this is even close to correct... During a 'ritual' the practitioner might suspend disbelief for a period of time (and these idiot monkeys many of you seem worried about would fuck the map and bury the corpse no matter what the map said)... but its not a requirement that you 'believe' the map or mistake the map for the territory.