Are you sure?

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

I have had some extremely strange and unlikely experiences that, to be perfectly honest, holds a glimmer of possibility of the supernatural. But just barely a glimmer.

I'm fairly sure that ghosts arise from hardwired features of our neurology that have conferred evolutionary advantages in spite of their likely falsehood. I think they still can bring benefits in this day and age in terms of bonding with people, internal communication, and making sense of the world in a deeply felt way. But there usually are costs to psychologically investing in this worldview, from what I've observed.

It's a sign that a person is likely to have little practice in forming, and perhaps more importantly, dismantling ideas based on analysis, corroboration and testable evidence. The process for believing in the supernatural is connected to a person's suggestibility and is based on bypassing the parts of your mind that critically evaluate. I agree that this "critical bypass" can be a positive thing in many ways, but when adhered to dogmatically as 169% truth, I have to agree with that buttface Dawkins, insofar as it becomes corrosive to science and vice versa.

You're one of the few people I've come across, Charley, who advocates supernaturalism but also maintains an uncanny ability to say, "Oh, I was wrong," based on new information.

What do you think of science and skeptics in relationship to your experiences with ghosts?

[Adios]

I rely heavily on scientists and skeptics both to keep me...grounded, for lack of a better word. I think, like you say if one allows themself (sp) to fall into one set of dogma then that is an intellectual and spiritual dead end and inhibits growth as a person.

I do, however think an open mind is as critical to growth as the above. Like primitive people, (prehistoric, etc) I allow my brain to translate some things certain ways, ie, ghosts. However, if tomorrow some evidence came out that offered a real world explanation I would of course research it and reach my own conclusion.

I think there are so many things we do not know, that to spout of certain knowledge is foolish in the extreme.

I hope I answered your question.

[Adios]

Net?

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

Hey, thanks for letting me pick your brain on the topic.

[BadBeast]

I will not say there is no such thing as Ghosts. There's so much stuff that is around, that we use every day, that we can't satisfactorily explain, (Gravity, electricity, magnets, dark matter) On the other hand, I find it's healthy generally to maintain a certain level of scepticism. This is easy enough to do with other peoples crazy tales, and crackpot theories, but the test is, to apply it to your own experiences.

"But I saw it, it must be real". We are all far more easily tricked by our own eyesight, than we would care to admit.

"I know what I saw" Well, plenty of people see other stuff, that they don't know what it is. And accepted it. (Rainbows, Aurora Borealis)

"Mythology is full of cases" Well, yes it is, but it's also full of a whole load of other stuff too, that is preposterous. People don't neccessarily need any empirical evidence to believe in whatever they choose to believe in.

I have seen on a few occaisions, and felt those things that get called ghosts. Yet, I am not sure they were the Spirits of the dead. Or thinning of the fabric of time. Or Phase shifted Aliens. But they were something.
Something that has been described, elaborated on, made up, written about, faked, misunderstood, perhaps understood, by credible (as well as many drunk) people for thousands of years. I'm quite happy to suspend judgement on what it was that I saw, that someone else might call "Ghosts". I will say that is a phenomena,
that has been described throughout history, all over the world, in every Culture, that is somehow,  as yet
unprovable, and unquantifiable in any way we can agree on. This phenomena, is what I expeienced.

Well, that's Ghosts covered. I also have a recovered memory of seeing a 2 or 3 foot high Fairy, swinging on the handles of my Grandfather's wheelbarrow one Sunday afternoon, when I was about 6 years old. A textbook Elf. Pointy ears, greenish skin, long, slanty eyes. kind of (here's where I sound like a complete wanker) sparkled in the sunlight.  with a greeny, goldy, shiny, sparkly quality that isn't very common, or easy to describe. Thing is, I never remembered this until my mid thirties. But then It was like I had always known, but never cared to recall it, because it wasn't relevant. I just seemed to forget it, 10 minutes after it happened, and didn't think of it again for 30 years. There was no "revelation", or shock.  Just some memory I had not been aware of. But am now.

If I said that yes, that I unequivocably believe in Fairies, they would not be anything like the one I saw that afternoon. But so many accounts of Fairies / Aliens have so many things that tie them together, missing time, abduction, flying, coming to in a City hundreds of miles away, with no explanation, pointy ears, green / grey skin. gifts that fade to nothing after the event has happened. So this phenomena, just opens up more questions, that I am no more qualified to answer, than someone who watched a Film on Dragons, could tell you whether they really breathed fire or not. So I'm suspending any judgement on this one too.

Right, I'm only going to mention this next thing, briefly, and observe my right not to give any details that would detract from the issue, (which, to me seems to be suspension of belief, without jumping to either / or decisions, which are just another type of absolute)
But, I was once, when I was 21, and not under the influence of any drug, and in broad daylight, visited by the Archangel Gabriel. I know it was him, because it said, "I am the Arcangel Ge' he'briel" (Spelling it like that, because that's how it sounded spelled)

I would treat all these stories with scepticism if they were from someone else. Not disbelief, but scepticism. So what makes my experiences any more real than theirs?  Why am I so certain I'm not tricking myself, with tricky tricks? Or mental "episodes"?   Fuck all, that's what. Only the fact, that that was them, and this was me. All three lots of events are here, stored in my memory, as "Things that happened to me" So that's as far as I can take it. So to answer your question, yes, I am sure that these things happened. To me.
But as to any explanation regarding what they were? No, most certainly not. I described them using the frames of cultural reference that are available for such events. But I have no idea what they all are, or what the fuck it all means. Even less of an explanation than I would have, if I had no experiences like this.

I will say, that there are more things under Heaven, than we can possibly explain. So it's just as well I'm not being asked to explain it all.      Healthy Scepticism.    Helps to keep you me sane.

[Phox]

I will not say there is no such thing as Ghosts. There's so much stuff that is around, that we use every day, that we can't satisfactorily explain, (Gravity, electricity, magnets, dark matter) On the other hand, I find it's healthy generally to maintain a certain level of scepticism. This is easy enough to do with other peoples crazy tales, and crackpot theories, but the test is, to apply it to your own experiences.

"But I saw it, it must be real". We are all far more easily tricked by our own eyesight, than we would care to admit.

"I know what I saw" Well, plenty of people see other stuff, that they don't know what it is. And accepted it. (Rainbows, Aurora Borealis)

"Mythology is full of cases" Well, yes it is, but it's also full of a whole load of other stuff too, that is preposterous. People don't neccessarily need any empirical evidence to believe in whatever they choose to believe in.

I have seen on a few occaisions, and felt those things that get called ghosts. Yet, I am not sure they were the Spirits of the dead. Or thinning of the fabric of time. Or Phase shifted Aliens. But they were something.
Something that has been described, elaborated on, made up, written about, faked, misunderstood, perhaps understood, by credible (as well as many drunk) people for thousands of years. I'm quite happy to suspend judgement on what it was that I saw, that someone else might call "Ghosts". I will say that is a phenomena,
that has been described throughout history, all over the world, in every Culture, that is somehow,  as yet
unprovable, and unquantifiable in any way we can agree on. This phenomena, is what I expeienced.

Well, that's Ghosts covered. I also have a recovered memory of seeing a 2 or 3 foot high Fairy, swinging on the handles of my Grandfather's wheelbarrow one Sunday afternoon, when I was about 6 years old. A textbook Elf. Pointy ears, greenish skin, long, slanty eyes. kind of (here's where I sound like a complete wanker) sparkled in the sunlight.  with a greeny, goldy, shiny, sparkly quality that isn't very common, or easy to describe. Thing is, I never remembered this until my mid thirties. But then It was like I had always known, but never cared to recall it, because it wasn't relevant. I just seemed to forget it, 10 minutes after it happened, and didn't think of it again for 30 years. There was no "revelation", or shock.  Just some memory I had not been aware of. But am now.

If I said that yes, that I unequivocably believe in Fairies, they would not be anything like the one I saw that afternoon. But so many accounts of Fairies / Aliens have so many things that tie them together, missing time, abduction, flying, coming to in a City hundreds of miles away, with no explanation, pointy ears, green / grey skin. gifts that fade to nothing after the event has happened. So this phenomena, just opens up more questions, that I am no more qualified to answer, than someone who watched a Film on Dragons, could tell you whether they really breathed fire or not. So I'm suspending any judgement on this one too.

Right, I'm only going to mention this next thing, briefly, and observe my right not to give any details that would detract from the issue, (which, to me seems to be suspension of belief, without jumping to either / or decisions, which are just another type of absolute)
But, I was once, when I was 21, and not under the influence of any drug, and in broad daylight, visited by the Archangel Gabriel. I know it was him, because it said, "I am the Arcangel Ge' he'briel" (Spelling it like that, because that's how it sounded spelled)

I would treat all these stories with scepticism if they were from someone else. Not disbelief, but scepticism. So what makes my experiences any more real than theirs?  Why am I so certain I'm not tricking myself, with tricky tricks? Or mental "episodes"?   Fuck all, that's what. Only the fact, that that was them, and this was me. All three lots of events are here, stored in my memory, as "Things that happened to me" So that's as far as I can take it. So to answer your question, yes, I am sure that these things happened. To me.
But as to any explanation regarding what they were? No, most certainly not. I described them using the frames of cultural reference that are available for such events. But I have no idea what they all are, or what the fuck it all means. Even less of an explanation than I would have, if I had no experiences like this.

I will say, that there are more things under Heaven, than we can possibly explain. So it's just as well I'm not being asked to explain it all.      Healthy Scepticism.    Helps to keep you me sane.

That is a very good stance to take, in my opinion, not that it matters. I have experienced a great many paranormal activities. Though many of them are highly ambiguous at best, there is the aforementioned incident that sticks out in my mind.

It occurred roughly five years ago, when I was fifteen or sixteen. One night, I was lying in bed at night, not too late. Maybe 9-10 o'clock. I had been reading, and dozed off a bit. I awoke suddenly, with a completely clear head (that is unusual, to say the leas). In the darkness I sensed a presence. It seemed to me to be purely malevolent, with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. I don't know why, but I felt that whatever it was was after my very soul, and that thought filled me with a terror that no physical consequence ever could. I am perfectly alright with my soul being damned by my own actions, but the idea that the monster in the dark would have it and do who knows what unspeakable terrors to it was beyond horrific. I did the only sensible thing, I ran screaming down the hall to my sister's room. I didn't wake anyone, but my parents came to see what was going on. My mother claimed that my reading material was too blame. It was Stephen King's The Stand. I suppose the character of Flagg could be considered similar, but I had read the book numerous times before and not been scared. It also seemed to me that a character like Flagg would be more interested in trying to convert me to his way of thinking, which wouldn't have been hard at the time, perhaps not even now. This creature, however, had nothing in mind but harming me, of that I am sure. My parents, of course, refused to believe me. My sister may have. She always was more open-minded about such things... either way, she allowed me to stay in her room that night. In the light of the day, it seemed silly to me. But to this day, at night, especially when I'm alone, I get paranoid, though I have never again felt that presence. Also of note, before that experience, I had the carefree atheism and materialistic outlook that only the naive can posses, though I suppose I believed in a form of Christianity because my parents wanted me to. I was not a spiritual person, though I was not a hardcore skeptic either. I was just preoccupied with the immediate concerns, and didn't give much heed to that sort of thing. Since that time, I have become a scholar of religious and spiritual beliefs. I converted to Catholicism, though I don't necessarily believe everything a Catholic should. I consider myself a Buddhist and a Taoist. I also embraced Discordia at around the same time. I have very specific reasons for this: I find religious icons, of any sort, to be extremely comforting, whether they have any real power or not. It was/is easier for me to acquire Catholic/Christian symbols and get my parents to accept them. I find meditation, Tai Chi, and other practices of the sort to be relaxing in the extreme, and I feel a sense of peace when I do them. Many Taoist teachings reflect my own beliefs on the nature of the universe, and the Tao is a pretty neat symbol. As for Discordia, well the answer to that should be obvious enough.

Now i have said far more about myself on this forum than I intended to. Hopefully this story will give some insight into my character.

[Kai]

I think the problem with using "ghost" is that it privileges the hypothesis. As previous posters have pointed out, it could be a large number of things. Why privilege that particular hypothesis, rather than any of the others?

It's sorta like saying "Bob was murdered last night, it could be anyone of a thousand people who were in area. But who says Sally didn't do it? I'm not saying she DID it, but that we should keep her in mind in our investigations."

Replace with: Theres this confusing phenomenon, it could be any number of things. But who says it couldn't be ghosts? I'm not saying it IS ghosts, but that we should keep ghosts in mind in our investigations.

[Adios]

Let me try it on.


Last night I saw a ghost.

Last night I saw this confusing phenomenon, it could be any number of things. But who says it couldn't be ghosts? I'm not saying it IS ghosts, but that we should keep ghosts in mind in our investigations.


Nope, sticking with ghost. 

[Adios]

I enjoy that others are sharing experiences.

[BadBeast]

Ghost is cerrtainly more conducive to language. Even if it turned out they were really something called, erm, . .Revenential resonances, we might as well keep calling them Ghosts. Less consonants, easier to say, and while not everyone believes in them, at least everyone knows what the concept means. Anyway, if there's something strange, in your neighbourhood,  who ya gonna call? Confusing Phenomenum Busters? That doesn't sound right!

[Kai]

Let me try it on.


Last night I saw a ghost.

Last night I saw this confusing phenomenon, it could be any number of things. But who says it couldn't be ghosts? I'm not saying it IS ghosts, but that we should keep ghosts in mind in our investigations.


Nope, sticking with ghost. 

No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that privileging the ghost hypothesis, it is no different than picking one of 1000 people out as being a murderer without any evidence.

http://lesswrong.com/lw/19m/privileging_the_hypothesis/

It's a very wide spread fallacy, especially in religions.

[Adios]

I was making a joke.

[Prince Glittersnatch III]

A FEW YEARS AGO A I WAS WALKING DOWN A ROAD BECAUSE MY CAR BROKE DOWN AND I SAW A CAR COMING UP BEHIND ME SO I STUCK OUT MY THUMB TO HITCH HIKE AND THE CAR STOPPED AHEAD OF ME. I RAN UP TO THE PASSENGER SIDE AND OPENED THE DOOR. WHEN I OPENED THE DOOR A SKELETON POPPED OUT!

[Triple Zero]

I never had anything really weird happen to me that I could liken to that. The weirdest things are:

1) at some point, going through my CD collection, I found the very first CD I ever bought twice. That's weird cause I wouldn't have bought it again, and at the time all my friends were into metal and stuff and this was a Happy Hardcore single, so it couldn't have been I accidentally picked it up at a party (people used to bring a selection of their own CDs to parties, and it could happen at the end of the night you put the wrong one in your bag). I still have both of them. I can't explain it. It's probably not a ghost, though.

2) one time on a railway station, sunny afternoon, I saw a girl with red eyes. Not an albino, just a pretty, slightly alternative looking girl. I had to catch a bus, so I couldn't check it out better. It could have been red contacts or some glint of the sun or maybe I saw it wrong. Also probably not a ghost. Maybe a vampire or alien or something like that, I can't rule that out 100%.

But that, that's really it.

[Epimetheus]

Once, home alone, I saw in glass the reflection of someone leaving the side of my house toward the front. I went out front to check the only place they could have gone, and no one was there.

Otherwise, a few weird sounds here and there, or some things falling off shelves, but otherwise I haven't experienced any paranormal weirdness. Certainly nothing to confirm any particular kind of entity's existence.