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Bigotry is abound, apprently, within these boards.  There is a level of supposed tolerance I will have no part of.  Obviously, it seems to be well-embraced here.  I have finally found something more fucked up than what I'm used to.  Congrats. - Ruby

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Messages - SmogofCogs

#1
i feel like i'm coming across as a bigoted asshole. i have no problem being a feminist. all i'm trying to say is that i can't derive my male identity from the movement because i'm only an ally to it. that means it's female-centric and it should be. yes, it deals with females and males, but not the totality of what it means to be male. and as GARBO pointed out, it is silly to derive my identity from it. well then where else should i look to find a space to express and discover a good positive male identity?

i've heard of white anti-racist spaces and i hear they're successful. of course they don't organize without input from the people of color community and a solid understanding of racism. but it's a place to go to if you're white to learn from other whites on how you're probably racist, how that feels to you as a white person, and how not to be such an ass.
#2
this i realize. male behavior that discourages men from being assholes to each other and women is usually not rewarded by society. i don't see the harm in having a space away from the mainstream and separate from (but cooperative with) feminism where males can encourage each other to be good males. am i being privileged here?

anyway i'm done. i'll go read and think some more. as Dingo and Pixie have suggested.

i appreciate the conversation
#3
ok, so this is starting to clear up for me, or so it seems. i'm hearing (yes i may have bad hearing) a couple (what i see as) contradictory things.

1. feminism is female and male positive and there's no reason to seek a male positive movement outside of it
2. defer to females about situations related to feminism / feminism is not up to me

i get that feminism isn't about me and that i should defer to females regarding feminist matters. yes feminism should be part of my male identity.

then why is it not necessary to have a male positive movement outside of feminism?
#4
yeah and i see that i'm derailing the sex-ed stuff here. apologies. but this is helpful to me if that means anything to anyone.
#5
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on August 06, 2012, 12:31:24 AM
Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 06, 2012, 12:21:59 AM
Quote from: Dear Departed Uncle Nigel on August 05, 2012, 11:43:54 PM
Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 05, 2012, 11:33:57 PM
Quote from: Dear Departed Uncle Nigel on August 05, 2012, 11:01:47 PM
Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 05, 2012, 10:52:59 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on August 05, 2012, 08:28:05 PM
We live in a heterosexist society (which is to say that only heterosexual relationships are considered natural and normal), so I would actually support discussing the queer community.
Also trans* people are not a sexuality, since it's about sex and gender and various ways people are not cis (man born in a male body, woman born in a female body), which is worth mentioning I think (because, horray, cissexism).


I think your privilege may be showing (although I'm glad you realized that that was a possibility! You are definitely looking like a biped). Cis men are 100% welcome in feminism (as allies, since you are not and never have been actually one of us), so far as most feminists are concerned, but women/females need a movement of their own for the same reason queers, POC, etc. do. We're not the dominant paradigm and need a movement in order to do the work.
Also, not our problem if men can't get behind the term 'feminism'.

yeah. i guess it would be silly to call it anything other than feminism. maybe i'm just wishing that there was a decent men's movement for men to get behind that wasn't so anti-women? i like being an ally though. it's a hat i wear, although i don't belong to any formal groups. really made me identify with being a white hetero cis-male (instead of assuming i'm the default or something) for the first time and start trying to accept all the bullshit that comes with that.

There is one, it's called "feminism".

really?

I guess it depends on what you want the movement for. Is it for equality? Egalitarianism? The rights of men to be on level footing with women, to show their emotions, to be nurturing, and to be loving and engaged fathers, partners, and sons? That one's called "feminism".

If you're looking for one that reinforces men's position of privilege in Western society, I think that one's called "The Tea Party".

I'm not sure what you're going for, here, but your lament kind of reminds me of the lament that there's no such channel as White Entertainment Television. There is; it's called "all of the rest of them."

Males, particularly white males, already have the biggest, most solid support group there is, and it's called "society".

i don't feel like i'm lamenting. just pondering.

i'm looking for the former description. can't men be organizing separately from women on these issues? in constant communication with the feminist movement, but separately? it'd seem like a positive experience to have a male movement that espoused the values of feminism, but focused on helping men make that a reality. shouldn't it be our job to teach ourselves about rape culture? to have other men who understand what it's like to be defensive and angry explain to young men what sexism really is? or are men not capable of doing so without having their privilege run amok?

i guess i'm wondering why it can't also be male-positive. i understand that society is already defaulted to males, but why can't males who are trying to overcome this shit create a positive identity for themselves separate from the one society has placed upon them?
It *is* male positive. Feminism is not about punishing someone for their gender or sex or both. And why would you want a separate group to work with feminists, except to feel special about being a decent human being? (this is, btw, an instance of your privilege showing, imo)
Yes, it is your job to teach yourself about rape culture but you can do that working as part of the feminist movement (and yes, you can talk to other cis dudes about feminism and fight back against sexism without your privilege showing)

can you explain the bit about feeling special about being a decent human being? i feel like i just want a separate identity here. i'm only allowed in the feminist movement as an ally. the rest of society while granting me immense amounts of privilege isn't down with the identity i want to create. can't i just be part of a group of similar people so we can all say 'i know that feel bro' to each other? i guess i just don't understand why if feminism is both female and male positive, and there's no other space needed to discuss these topics, that it has to be named after females and i can only be an ally? maybe i'm feeling defensive that i'm losing the spotlight or something, but i think having to find my male identity in a movement named after a different identity bothers me.
#6
Quote from: Dear Departed Uncle Nigel on August 05, 2012, 11:43:54 PM
Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 05, 2012, 11:33:57 PM
Quote from: Dear Departed Uncle Nigel on August 05, 2012, 11:01:47 PM
Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 05, 2012, 10:52:59 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on August 05, 2012, 08:28:05 PM
We live in a heterosexist society (which is to say that only heterosexual relationships are considered natural and normal), so I would actually support discussing the queer community.
Also trans* people are not a sexuality, since it's about sex and gender and various ways people are not cis (man born in a male body, woman born in a female body), which is worth mentioning I think (because, horray, cissexism).


I think your privilege may be showing (although I'm glad you realized that that was a possibility! You are definitely looking like a biped). Cis men are 100% welcome in feminism (as allies, since you are not and never have been actually one of us), so far as most feminists are concerned, but women/females need a movement of their own for the same reason queers, POC, etc. do. We're not the dominant paradigm and need a movement in order to do the work.
Also, not our problem if men can't get behind the term 'feminism'.

yeah. i guess it would be silly to call it anything other than feminism. maybe i'm just wishing that there was a decent men's movement for men to get behind that wasn't so anti-women? i like being an ally though. it's a hat i wear, although i don't belong to any formal groups. really made me identify with being a white hetero cis-male (instead of assuming i'm the default or something) for the first time and start trying to accept all the bullshit that comes with that.

There is one, it's called "feminism".

really?

I guess it depends on what you want the movement for. Is it for equality? Egalitarianism? The rights of men to be on level footing with women, to show their emotions, to be nurturing, and to be loving and engaged fathers, partners, and sons? That one's called "feminism".

If you're looking for one that reinforces men's position of privilege in Western society, I think that one's called "The Tea Party".

I'm not sure what you're going for, here, but your lament kind of reminds me of the lament that there's no such channel as White Entertainment Television. There is; it's called "all of the rest of them."

Males, particularly white males, already have the biggest, most solid support group there is, and it's called "society".

i don't feel like i'm lamenting. just pondering.

i'm looking for the former description. can't men be organizing separately from women on these issues? in constant communication with the feminist movement, but separately? it'd seem like a positive experience to have a male movement that espoused the values of feminism, but focused on helping men make that a reality. shouldn't it be our job to teach ourselves about rape culture? to have other men who understand what it's like to be defensive and angry explain to young men what sexism really is? or are men not capable of doing so without having their privilege run amok?

i guess i'm wondering why it can't also be male-positive. i understand that society is already defaulted to males, but why can't males who are trying to overcome this shit create a positive identity for themselves separate from the one society has placed upon them?
#7
Quote from: Dear Departed Uncle Nigel on August 05, 2012, 11:01:47 PM
Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 05, 2012, 10:52:59 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on August 05, 2012, 08:28:05 PM
We live in a heterosexist society (which is to say that only heterosexual relationships are considered natural and normal), so I would actually support discussing the queer community.
Also trans* people are not a sexuality, since it's about sex and gender and various ways people are not cis (man born in a male body, woman born in a female body), which is worth mentioning I think (because, horray, cissexism).


I think your privilege may be showing (although I'm glad you realized that that was a possibility! You are definitely looking like a biped). Cis men are 100% welcome in feminism (as allies, since you are not and never have been actually one of us), so far as most feminists are concerned, but women/females need a movement of their own for the same reason queers, POC, etc. do. We're not the dominant paradigm and need a movement in order to do the work.
Also, not our problem if men can't get behind the term 'feminism'.

yeah. i guess it would be silly to call it anything other than feminism. maybe i'm just wishing that there was a decent men's movement for men to get behind that wasn't so anti-women? i like being an ally though. it's a hat i wear, although i don't belong to any formal groups. really made me identify with being a white hetero cis-male (instead of assuming i'm the default or something) for the first time and start trying to accept all the bullshit that comes with that.

There is one, it's called "feminism".

really?
#8
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on August 05, 2012, 08:28:05 PM
We live in a heterosexist society (which is to say that only heterosexual relationships are considered natural and normal), so I would actually support discussing the queer community.
Also trans* people are not a sexuality, since it's about sex and gender and various ways people are not cis (man born in a male body, woman born in a female body), which is worth mentioning I think (because, horray, cissexism).


I think your privilege may be showing (although I'm glad you realized that that was a possibility! You are definitely looking like a biped). Cis men are 100% welcome in feminism (as allies, since you are not and never have been actually one of us), so far as most feminists are concerned, but women/females need a movement of their own for the same reason queers, POC, etc. do. We're not the dominant paradigm and need a movement in order to do the work.
Also, not our problem if men can't get behind the term 'feminism'.

yeah. i guess it would be silly to call it anything other than feminism. maybe i'm just wishing that there was a decent men's movement for men to get behind that wasn't so anti-women? i like being an ally though. it's a hat i wear, although i don't belong to any formal groups. really made me identify with being a white hetero cis-male (instead of assuming i'm the default or something) for the first time and start trying to accept all the bullshit that comes with that.
#9
lately i've been a bit fascinated with that theme although differently. that you can shove people into a tin can for 700 years and not have shit happen. that some architect is cunning enough to create an environment that humans can't escape from. that's a representation of the theme in a physical form. in a more abstract form would be something a la inception (spoiler alerts i suppose). to me it didn't matter what "level" of the dream cobb was on. there was no real level. sure he might have started out (or his memory) at level 1, but he could have went up or down (or left or right or diagonal). the only thing level 1 had was starting off in a stable, reliable environment and having a stable, reliable memory. in the end cobb just chooses any level so that he may have a reliable environment and memory so he doesn't go insane wrapping himself up in strange loops of meaning. how does this relate? well i feel that the architecture that we exist in prevents us from ever putting a solid logical foot down. thus we can't climb to transcendence because our starting point is always suspect. this leaves the only transcendence to realizing this or becoming one with this or some bullshit. so basically we're trapped in an ouroboros like mother fucking fat people on a mother fucking space ship 
#10
Quote from: Forsooth on August 05, 2012, 06:12:00 PM
Based on context, does that acronym stand for "Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans-Gender, Queer, Asexual, and Pig-Fucker"?

People come up with the darndest names for things...

adding bbq was a huge step for the movement. the pig-fucker community, up until then was excluded and ridiculed, left to get off in dark alleyways and dirty underground nightclubs. police are people too you know.

Quote from: Dear Departed Uncle Nigel on August 05, 2012, 06:33:06 PM

I propose that in order to be inclusive and not leave anyone out, we just refer to the whole spectrum by the shorthand of "sexuality".


i concur, but i think these divisions can be helpful to the people contained within them because they've been told not to feel at home in the normative definition of sexuality. when a critical mass of people accept the whole spectrum, then maybe they'll feel ok with that? i'm not a huge fan of these divisions as well. the term feminism bothers me sometimes for this reason. i know third-wave is more about equality for everyone and is sex-positive, but it still feels like another boundary to break down. women can't move forward to a different sexual paradigm on their own and need the participation and education of men, however douchey and privileged we can be at times. most men can't get behind the term feminism though and start to lash back when they see women organizing. seems counterproductive. maybe my privilege is showing though?
#11
i'm picking up hints of playfulness, but i'm not really sure. i'm actually not used to communicating with strangers on the internet, and you bunch are definitely off. so i waver between "do i sound like a pretentious schmuck?" and "they must understand me!"
#12
one thing i'd want to do is expose a narrative that i see in a lot of american media. the narrative that says guys "get some" and girls "give it up". instead of that 'vagina is a commodity (depreciating value with time and usage btw, unlike the penis which can actually increase in value with time and usage) and men have to somehow maneuver around some bitch so that they can gain access to it and thereby bask in the greatness of the pussy oversoul' bullshit, i'd try to make them think of how great reciprocal sex is. and show them how much of an asshole you are if you are completely ignoring the person you are having sex with, let alone the effects that having sex with them may have on them.

and it'd probably be a good time to drop some lgbtqabbq knowledge on them as well
#13
Hi! i'm here. i'm human. i'm a pretty awkward slow learning type. i get the sense that i may be able to learn something here. i feel a range of emotions and thoughts. lately i've been trying to cultivate more sense of direction in life (yes i'm still naive enough to think i can control or even know where i'm going) because i'm young and mostly purposeless and i react to that with anxiety and depression. i'm all like "jeez luk wut mozart did wen he wuz ur age, you no good piece of shit" but alas i find no solace in committing to(o) much, or realizing that shame is not the game. sometimes there's not even pleasure in the thought of expanding my head space. but more important than direction (because fuck that shit) i'm just trying to feel it as it comes, keep pinching myself and keep a stable memory so i don't integrate (death is scary bro)

i'm open to/for interpretation