Yet another healthcare topic

[MMIX]

If its compulsory, if the individual doesn't have a direct say...

Well, yeah.  You live in a representational republic, not a direct democracy.

Taxes are constitutional.  If you aren't wild about that, then start a drive to amend the constitution.

I'm not arguing that its not legal... only that its a form of slavery, even if its Constitutionally authorized slavery

It is only "slavery" in the same sense as "wage slavery" is "slavery; you are not "owned" by the Government - you might want to argue that you are in some occult way "owned" by the Corporations - though I suspect that wouldn't jive too well with what I assume your political stance to be . . .

[Elder Iptuous]

i don't understand the commotion.

Rat clearly indicated that taxation can bring about social benefits, and hasn't in the context of this conversation argued against them.  he simply said that taxation is a form of involuntary servitude, i.e. slavery.  that makes sense to me?

why the opposition to calling a spade a spade?  if you want to have people perform labor, the product of which is then confiscated for the greater good, can't we call it what it is, at least?

my take is that such blatant honesty is simply not good for furtherance of the goal, and thus the vitriol.

[LMNO]

It sounds to me like it's an exchange of goods and services.

If you want to live in the US, and have access to the stuff that US citizens get (roads, national/domestic security, (some) education, etc etc), then you have to give the gvt some of the money you make.



I'm not saying it's an equal exchange, but...

[Doktor Howl]

Yeah, I was saying it was pretty much the same kind of hyperbole.

Because....well, it is.  I mean, if you want to redefine freedom as the privilege of not contributing to the social good, then knock yourself out.  I'll be over here, laughing.

This thread, of course, is now about Libertarianism and not health care.

Amazing.

[Doktor Howl]

It sounds to me like it's an exchange of goods and services.

If you want to live in the US, and have access to the stuff that US citizens get (roads, national/domestic security, (some) education, etc etc), then you have to give the gvt some of the money you make.



I'm not saying it's an equal exchange, but...

No, LMNO, it's just as bad as slavery in the 1850s.  Because, you know, the slaves back then could up and leave.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

MMIX,

Then you misunderstand my political stance. The corporations are worse than the government generally speaking. Oddly enough, I hope that the health care bill becomes law, now that its passed. I have no illusions that we will ever vote in someone who will remove taxes and replace it with some better solution. Personally, I find the idea that some group of people have the right to tell me what to do is silly. However, in this world of talking monkeys, the tribal hierarchy is not about to disappear. So if the big monkeys in Washington are going to take our money, I think health care is a great place for that money to go. In fact, the health care issue is one of the biggest reasons I voted for Obama. (The fact that I would die before helping Sarah Palin get anywhere near the White House was a close second).

[Elder Iptuous]

Yeah, I was saying it was pretty much the same kind of hyperbole.

Because....well, it is.  I mean, if you want to redefine freedom as the privilege of not contributing to the social good, then knock yourself out.  I'll be over here, laughing.

This thread, of course, is now about Libertarianism and not health care.

Amazing.

Look, the primary argument against this federal health care issue is that it is out of the scope for them to deal with.  that's got libertarian written all over.  how would you expect the topic to be debated?!

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

i don't understand the commotion.

Rat clearly indicated that taxation can bring about social benefits, and hasn't in the context of this conversation argued against them.  he simply said that taxation is a form of involuntary servitude, i.e. slavery.  that makes sense to me?

why the opposition to calling a spade a spade?  if you want to have people perform labor, the product of which is then confiscated for the greater good, can't we call it what it is, at least?

my take is that such blatant honesty is simply not good for furtherance of the goal, and thus the vitriol.

*insert something about religious debate here*

[East Coast Hustle]

i don't understand the commotion.

Rat clearly indicated that taxation can bring about social benefits, and hasn't in the context of this conversation argued against them.  he simply said that taxation is a form of involuntary servitude, i.e. slavery.  that makes sense to me?

why the opposition to calling a spade a spade?  if you want to have people perform labor, the product of which is then confiscated for the greater good, can't we call it what it is, at least?

my take is that such blatant honesty is simply not good for furtherance of the goal, and thus the vitriol.

having to involuntarily give the government some of your income (although it's not REALLY involuntary, since you can leave anytime) is hardly "slavery". It would be slavery if the government told you what you had to do, how long you had to do it, and you had better produce THIS much or you're going to get whipped/beaten/killed.

Srsly, comparing taxation to slavery is possibly even more retarded than the entire internet's worth of frivolous Hitler comparisons.

[Elder Iptuous]

It sounds to me like it's an exchange of goods and services.

If you want to live in the US, and have access to the stuff that US citizens get (roads, national/domestic security, (some) education, etc etc), then you have to give the gvt some of the money you make.



I'm not saying it's an equal exchange, but...

No, LMNO, it's just as bad as slavery in the 1850s.  Because, you know, the slaves back then could up and leave.

Because, thats exactly what was claimed....  

[LMNO]

So Ipt, explain to me how an exchange of goods and services is a form of slavery, plz.

[Cain]

Yeah, I was saying it was pretty much the same kind of hyperbole.

Because....well, it is.  I mean, if you want to redefine freedom as the privilege of not contributing to the social good, then knock yourself out.  I'll be over here, laughing.

This thread, of course, is now about Libertarianism and not health care.

Amazing.

Yeah, don't even get me started on that.  Like McCain said, "the American people are very angry".

Probably not at the change of topic in this thread, but you can never tell.

[Doktor Howl]

Yeah, I was saying it was pretty much the same kind of hyperbole.

Because....well, it is.  I mean, if you want to redefine freedom as the privilege of not contributing to the social good, then knock yourself out.  I'll be over here, laughing.

This thread, of course, is now about Libertarianism and not health care.

Amazing.

Yeah, don't even get me started on that.  Like McCain said, "the American people are very angry".

Probably not at the change of topic in this thread, but you can never tell.

IMA BE RICH ONE DAY, AND I DON'T WANT YOU HIPPIES FUCKING IT UP FOR ME.

[Cain]

Childish, irresponsible resentment of government services is the best path to political freedom!

[Elder Iptuous]

So Ipt, explain to me how an exchange of goods and services is a form of slavery, plz.

well.... i gave this silly analogy to net in regards to taxation being theft... perhaps that will suffice.

those fellas that wash your windshield with a dirty rag when you're at a stop light, and then stick out their hand for change?  they're annoying.  now if they threaten violence against you if you don't pony up some change (that they get to determine), you're going to tell me that's not theft?
If you think that's an absurd comparison, it can only be because you see personal utility in the things the govt. provides for your taxes, vs. a windshield 'washing'.    
So it sounds like what you're saying is that as long as it can be established that the personal utility to the individual is fair compensation for the money demanded, then it's not theft?
I'm sure you have a nice clean way of ensuring that, right?

as far as slavery i would say that stealing a portion of the fruits of one's labor is enough to qualify as 'slavery'.  

i mean, i guess that you could be a subsistence farmer and not engage in any commerce with other people, thus avoiding an income so as not to pay taxes....  but being put in that position isn't really freedom, right?

also, you could say it's not 'slavery' since you are free to LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT!!, but that just sounds the same as the rednecks when they spout that line, too....

hm...
i guess it's a matter of semantics.
i just think it's funny.