REEFER MADNESS!!!!!!

[Don Coyote]

Who thinks pot is probably a bad idea?  No

Who thinks pot is fine? Yes

Who thinks pot should land someone in prison?  No

Who thinks pot should carry a lesser sentence (fine, etc)?  No

Who thinks pot should be legal under the same conditions as alcohol?  Fucking yes

Who thinks pot should be completely unregulated in any way?  No

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I will just point out that the "legalize it and tax it" idea is no good.  I can say that from the experience of alcohol and tobacco.  I think we can agree that alcohol and tobacco sales are considerable.  Yet, they really aren't very big revenue generators for States and certainly aren't enough to support budgets and keep them in the black. 

Further, history also shows that those revenues don't go towards treatment or prevention.  Instead, Governors will make sure that revenue goes into their general funds, and nary a dime of it will go into treatment or prevention.  Fuck, my state has a fund that comes from the big Tobacco settlement from a decade ago.  Funds that are supposed to be specifically for prevention and treatment for tobacco, substance abuse, and other health areas.  Even THOSE dedicated funds are being stolen and put into the general fund. 

Based upon this experience alone, I can say the "tax it" idea just doesn't hold up. 

Balls.  Arizona makes a killing on tobacco and booze.

We have, however, never pretended that it would go to prevention, as that would eliminate a source of income (And the only source of income Arizona doesn't like is corporate taxes, because we're retarded.).

Instead, we just have our congressmen shovel it into their pet contractors/contributor's pockets.  It's easier that way, cuts out the middlemen.

[Requia ☣]

Utah makes even more of a killing on Booze, it helps that the state has an (admittedly shrinking) monopoly on Liquor stores.

I can just see the state run head shops now. 

[Salty]

Who thinks pot is probably a bad idea?  Nope. Well yes, but like smartassed, impatient women with attitude problems it's the kind of bad I like. I'm not concerned about other adults in this regard but I've been an insomniac since I hit puberty and didn't smoke till I was 18. I'd actually like to keep off it and I've succeeded as far as failing to fall into deep sleep for days at a time and I hate pills a lot. Though I am beginning to become concerned that certain chemical patterns may set in my brain, patterns that will be hard to undo should I so desire later in life.

Who thinks pot should land someone in prison?  In certain circumstances involving children, violent crime.

Who thinks pot should carry a lesser sentence (fine, etc)?  For personal use, most certainly.

Who thinks pot should be legal under the same conditions as alcohol?  I do.

Who thinks pot should be completely unregulated in any way?  I do not. It would be nice if we could live in a world without stoplights, amirite?

It does appear certain that allowing legalization would increase availability and usage in the underage, however I remember an incident in PA where a 10 year old child took his child sized 12 gauge shotgun and shot his stepmother dead when he found out she was pregnant. My point is there's all kinds of dangerous shit out there available to children, something that are a lot worse for them than pot. That is NOT to say that prevention isn't important because shit's bad. I'm only saying it makes me uncertain that keeping it illegal is the best option. I'm still thinking about it.

[Laughin Jude]

Who thinks pot is probably a bad idea?

For kids, yeah. Any mind-altering substance is a bad idea when you're young. And you probably shouldn't be smoking it every day any more than you should be drinking every day. But it's harmless as a once in a while thing.

Who thinks pot should land someone in prison?

Fuck no. The government has no business telling any adult what s/he puts in his/her body. That's effectively the government having the power to regulate your mental state; another term for that is "thought-crime." Of course, our drug laws have nothing to with rationality or science and everything to do with 1) busybodies who want to press their moral sensibilities on everyone else using the law as a cudgel, 2) keeping pharmaceutical companies' profits high and 3) pumping money into the ever-expanding prison-industrial complex.

Who thinks pot should carry a lesser sentence (fine, etc)?

Fuck no. Again, it's thought-crime legislation. There should be no punishment at all for adult possession or consumption of cannabis.

Who thinks pot should be legal under the same conditions as alcohol? Who thinks pot should be completely unregulated in any way?

I'd be fine with sale of cannabis being restricted to those 18 and over. (Note: I also think the drinking age should be lowered to 18 as it's completely retarded for a society that considers 18 "adulthood" to not allow someone who can be drafted, get married, etc. to have a beer. And I don't even have a horse in that race as I don't drink at all. It's a simple rights issue for me.) Growing cannabis for personal use should be considered legally no different from growing your own vegetables.

[LMNO]

I think you're misusing the phrase "thoughtcrime," as it was defined by Orwell.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I think you're misusing the phrase "thoughtcrime," as it was defined by Orwell.

Right, smoking pot is more than thought...

Oh hey that rhymed.

[BabylonHoruv]

That's what happens when you live in an authoritative country.  You have freedom, within limits.  And it is precisely that way in order to promote a well functioning society.  Or, as well functioning as you can get given that you have a bunch of monkeys running the thing.  And the reality is that drugs aren't illegal solely because of children.  That does happen to be why I think they should remain illegal.  But I'm only one person in this fight.  In the end, we have to way the cost and benefit of any policy.  I personally don't think the benefit of adults being able to smoke up in their living room outweighs the costs that will be shouldered by our youth.  You can mock that line of thinking all you want, and just cast it off like its some bullshit Hallmark greeting.  But I would humbly suggest that you should volunteer some of your time at your local adolescent substance abuse treatment agency or residential facility, and talk to real kids who've been impacted by substance abuse.  It's easy to just sit back and throw out the usual cliches, but I think perhaps you'd see it a bit differently if you looked beyond the NORML line of thought.   

This is the only thing that has really bugged me about the line that you are arguing.  That the only benefit that you can see to legalization is an increase in freedom for some adults in a way that isn't that important.

If the only benefit of legalization were the ability of smokers to partake recreationally without fear of consequences then I wouldn't really care personally.  However there is a lot more going on than that.  Leaving medical aside since that can be addressed without actually dismantling the war on weed there is the fact that marijuana is a huge income source for organized crime.  The cartels in Mexico get the majority of their income from pot and currently they are a threat to the very existence of the Mexican Government.   There's also the gateway drug effect.  because weed is illegal if you know someone that sells weed you probably know someone that sells something else, if the weed dealer doesn't he knows someone that does.  Also once you start smoking weed you've passed the psychological barrier of "doing an illegal drug" and any other illegal drug is much easier to decide to experiment with.  And then there's the financial costs of the war on weed.  We spend a huge amount of money catching people and even more imprisoning them.  We really can't afford that right now.

These are the benefits that motivate me to argue for legalization.  That I might be able to buy an eighth at the local gas station is really not the motivating factor for me.

[Freeky]

I think you're misusing the phrase "thoughtcrime," as it was defined by Orwell.

Yeah, me too.

[BabylonHoruv]

Who thinks pot is probably a bad idea?  I think pot is a bad idea for some people... just like alcohol or coffee. Or in TGRR's case beans. I also think its bad for young people, or anyone who uses it as an escape.

Who thinks pot is fine?  I think pot is fine for me, and for most everyone I know that enjoys it and still holds down a real job and can handle their responsibilities.

Who thinks pot should land someone in prison?  If someone sells to minors, they should go to prison.

Who thinks pot should be legal under the same conditions as alcohol?  I think this is probably the best solution.

Who thinks pot should be completely unregulated in any way?  I would love to be allowed to grow my own, but I accept that its extremely unlikely in the US for the government to allow that kind of unregulated behavior.

You are allowed to brew your own alcohol.

I'm in favor of weed being regulated like alcohol personally.  Tax the hell out of it, make it a serious crime to sell to minors, to drive under the influence, or to distribute without a license.

[BabylonHoruv]

I will just point out that the "legalize it and tax it" idea is no good.  I can say that from the experience of alcohol and tobacco.  I think we can agree that alcohol and tobacco sales are considerable.  Yet, they really aren't very big revenue generators for States and certainly aren't enough to support budgets and keep them in the black. 

Further, history also shows that those revenues don't go towards treatment or prevention.  Instead, Governors will make sure that revenue goes into their general funds, and nary a dime of it will go into treatment or prevention.  Fuck, my state has a fund that comes from the big Tobacco settlement from a decade ago.  Funds that are supposed to be specifically for prevention and treatment for tobacco, substance abuse, and other health areas.  Even THOSE dedicated funds are being stolen and put into the general fund. 

Based upon this experience alone, I can say the "tax it" idea just doesn't hold up. 

I disagree.  Not because a state can balance its budget on sin taxes, they can't.  But because even a negligible source of income is much better than the substance being a huge expenditure, which weed is currently and which alcohol was during prohibition.

[Telarus]

Rog, thank you for the wonderful re-direct.


Who thinks pot is probably a bad idea?

For some people (including children), yes it's a bad idea. The most direct effect on daily consciousness cycles is on the melatonin levels (it has been shown to increase efficiency in re-up-taking serotonin, something Big Pharm is very leery of as that eats directly into SSRI profits, but that's a benefit, for adults, and we're taking about negatives here). Messing with your melatonin cycles is best done after a long time practicing meditation. This is why in the Chakra based sytem, lower chakras are practiced and refined first and then the energy is lead up to the third eye (pineal glands produce most of the body's melatonin) and crown chakra. This IS NOT HEALTHY for a young developing consciousness still in flux.

Who thinks pot is fine?

For some people, yes. Carl Sagan did pretty damn well. Zoroaster and Jesus (allegedly) did pretty well. Shiva used it (bhang, soma) to defeat the demon king, and I'm hoping Dr. Melamede will 'prove' that we can use it to kill skin cancer.

Who thinks pot should land someone in prison?

Possession, use? Absolutely not. Distribution? Here's where it get's interesting. Land-owning Rastas are required to grow more than they can personally use and freely offer it to other clergy, as well as making land available for any lay member in the community to grow on. There is a Cal Supreme Court case about this right now. There is also a longstanding legal precedent that religiously motivated behaviors carry equal weight in the courts eyes as they exact same behavior motivated by medical reasons (the clearest case being a muslim firefighter who sued to keep his beard because a co-worker got a medical waiver from that part of the dress code). As such, recognized Pharmakia (licensed distributors, pharmacies) and recognized Clergy (often hospice workers) should be exempt from suspicion based on large quantities. Sales to children should be a criminally chargeable offense. Driving with massively elevated Melatonin levels should be studied further to determine risk, and until then probably not allowed.

Who thinks pot should carry a lesser sentence (fine, etc)?

Anything is better than the current penal approach (except maybe Sigapore's execution approach, eh?).

Who thinks pot should be legal under the same conditions as alcohol?

Probably the most feasible solution which recognizes that adult humans have indigenous relationships with certain plants that stretch back past the invention of 3rd circuit recorded history. Prohibition causes crime. RWHN sees the addiction level fallout in his local community, but the fact is that this Prohibition has been an excuse on both sides (gov/criminal gangs) to escalate violence as a means to profit. This means we are exporting war levels violence to the children of Juarez Mexico. That is unacceptable to me.

Who thinks pot should be completely unregulated in any way?

Definitely won't happen. Personal deregulation may (grow your own, use your own doesn't effect interstate commerce, SC douchebags of yesteryear), but any publicly marketed products will have to be regulated.

[AFK]

I will just point out that the "legalize it and tax it" idea is no good.  I can say that from the experience of alcohol and tobacco.  I think we can agree that alcohol and tobacco sales are considerable.  Yet, they really aren't very big revenue generators for States and certainly aren't enough to support budgets and keep them in the black. 

Further, history also shows that those revenues don't go towards treatment or prevention.  Instead, Governors will make sure that revenue goes into their general funds, and nary a dime of it will go into treatment or prevention.  Fuck, my state has a fund that comes from the big Tobacco settlement from a decade ago.  Funds that are supposed to be specifically for prevention and treatment for tobacco, substance abuse, and other health areas.  Even THOSE dedicated funds are being stolen and put into the general fund. 

Based upon this experience alone, I can say the "tax it" idea just doesn't hold up. 

I disagree.  Not because a state can balance its budget on sin taxes, they can't.  But because even a negligible source of income is much better than the substance being a huge expenditure, which weed is currently and which alcohol was during prohibition.

[citation and defining "huge expenditure" needed]

[Bruno]

Who thinks pot is probably a bad idea?  No.

Who thinks pot is fine?  Yes.

Who thinks pot should land someone in prison?  No.

Who thinks pot should carry a lesser sentence (fine, etc)?  No

Who thinks pot should be legal under the same conditions as alcohol?  Yes.

Who thinks pot should be completely unregulated in any way?  No. It should be regulated similar to beer, including homebrew laws. Individuals can have up to 10 adult plants and unlimited seedlings.



Also, I'd like to add that anyone who dies in an automobile accident and doesn't have any drugs in their bloodstream was clearly killed by sobriety.

[BabylonHoruv]

http://www.prohibitioncosts.org/

I know it's MPP, but the scientists who did the analysis are reliable and its endorsed by 3 Nobel laureates.  According to that paper we'd save 2.4 billion at the federal level and 5.3 billion at the local and state levels. I know that 5.3 would be spread out over a lot of localities, but that is still a lot of money.