Hate Crime

[The Johnny]

What differentiates one assault from another? Motivation. Getting sloppy drunk and beating up some poor fuck who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time is bad. Seeking out somebody to beat the bejeezus out of them is worse. Beating the living tar out of someone for being different... well, that's tricky, that is. Compare: getting shitfaced and killing someone in a car accident and intentionally running over someone with your vehicle and killing them. Which is worse? Now, which is worse: intentionally killing someone because they pissed you off, or intentionally killing someone because they are different?

The Law already distinguishes here, one is "Causing death by drunken driving" the other, "Murder".
Killing someone because they pissed you off, is still the same Crime as killing someone for being different. If being different pisses the Murderer off.
I'm not saying that we should ease off on fighting bigotry at all. Just that classing some crimes as hatecrimes, isn't going to make any difference.

How about if half a dozen citizens went out one night and beat a child molestor to death? Is that a hatecrime?

Is the "child molestor" category something you are born into?

Not sure. Does it matter?

Yes, it does matter.

Child molestors have a choice in doing a crime, or not doing a crime.

Being of a race or having a sexual inclination is not a choice. Nor a crime.

[Jasper]

Actually there IS research nowadays that calls the whole "choice" thing into question.  It is a mental illness with exaggerated social impacts, but until we can prevent it, it doesn't make sense to treat them as blameless victims.

[BadBeast]

What differentiates one assault from another? Motivation. Getting sloppy drunk and beating up some poor fuck who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time is bad. Seeking out somebody to beat the bejeezus out of them is worse. Beating the living tar out of someone for being different... well, that's tricky, that is. Compare: getting shitfaced and killing someone in a car accident and intentionally running over someone with your vehicle and killing them. Which is worse? Now, which is worse: intentionally killing someone because they pissed you off, or intentionally killing someone because they are different?

The Law already distinguishes here, one is "Causing death by drunken driving" the other, "Murder".
Killing someone because they pissed you off, is still the same Crime as killing someone for being different. If being different pisses the Murderer off.
I'm not saying that we should ease off on fighting bigotry at all. Just that classing some crimes as hatecrimes, isn't going to make any difference.

How about if half a dozen citizens went out one night and beat a child molestor to death? Is that a hatecrime?

I didn't make it clear, but let's ignore all laws for the moment. You and I are making the laws.  So, answer my questions from that perspective.

Ok, here goes.
1/ What differentiates one assault from another? Motivation.

2/Getting shitfaced and killing someone in a car accident, and intentionally running over someone with your vehicle and killing them. Which is worse?

3/which is worse: intentionally killing someone because they pissed you off, or intentionally killing someone because they are different?

1/ I'd say severity was more relevent than motivation.

2/Actually, I'd say that getting drunk and killing someone by accident was worse. It's sloppy, and needless. If (sober) I were to run someone over, with the intention of killing them, then you can be pretty sure that person deserved it.

3/ Intentionally killing someone because they were different would be worse. Killing someone because they pissed me off, would mean that the person had really really pissed me off, and I'd thought about how to respond. If killing them was the answer I came up with, then they must have deserved it.

[The Johnny]

Actually there IS research nowadays that calls the whole "choice" thing into question.  It is a mental illness with exaggerated social impacts, but until we can prevent it, it doesn't make sense to treat them as blameless victims.

If one does not treat their anti-social impulses to hurt innocent people, then by all means i consider it their fault.

I understand that people that lived thru sexual abuse in their childhood get these impulses, and they cant change that, but at some point it is their resposibility to do something about it, namely, therapy.

[BadBeast]

The causes of Paedophilia, in relation to this topic, are irrelevent. Would it be a hate crime to beat the fucker to death?
Or just a simple case of Murder, with mitigating circumstances?

[The Johnny]

You are missing what im saying for some reason.

Child molestors is a category you belong to when you molest childs.

Being Gay is a category you belong to when you form your sexual identity, apparently at two years of age.

Being of a race is a category you are born into.

Each category "membership" is derived from different facts.

Is this more understandable?

[BadBeast]

You are missing what im saying for some reason.

Child molestors is a category you belong to when you molest childs.

Being Gay is a category you belong to when you form your sexual identity, apparently at two years of age.

Being of a race is a category you are born into.

Each category "membership" is derived from different facts.

Is this more understandable?

Not really. You seem to be labouring under the misconception that any of the above reasons are relevent. People generally hate child molestors. So if a group of people beat someone to death, on the basis that they were a child molestor, (and they hated child molestors) would it be a hatecrime?
It's not difficult to understand the question is it?

[Prince Glittersnatch III]

You are missing what im saying for some reason.

Child molestors is a category you belong to when you molest childs.

Being Gay is a category you belong to when you form your sexual identity, apparently at two years of age.

Being of a race is a category you are born into.

Each category "membership" is derived from different facts.

Is this more understandable?

Based on your criteria bigotry based on religion would not be a hate crime since you are not born into a religion but rather actively choose to associate with it.

[Jasper]

I've already answered.  No it wouldn't.  It would be assault.  

And Joh'nyx, most people ARE born into their religions.  People raised within a religious framework, with no pressure to renounce their faith, will rarely do so.

[E.O.T.]

SO FAR

          this thread rules

[The Johnny]

You are missing what im saying for some reason.

Child molestors is a category you belong to when you molest childs.

Being Gay is a category you belong to when you form your sexual identity, apparently at two years of age.

Being of a race is a category you are born into.

Each category "membership" is derived from different facts.

Is this more understandable?

Not really. You seem to be labouring under the misconception that any of the above reasons are relevent. People generally hate child molestors. So if a group of people beat someone to death, on the basis that they were a child molestor, (and they hated child molestors) would it be a hatecrime?
It's not difficult to understand the question is it?

No, killing a child molestor isnt a hate crime, because child molestors arent part of a minority that deserves extra-deterrent to be protected.

[BadBeast]

I've already answered.  No it wouldn't.  It would be assault. 

And Joh'nyx, most people ARE born into their religions.  People raised within a religious framework, with no pressure to renounce their faith, will rarely do so.

Well, actually, it would be murder.

[Prince Glittersnatch III]

I've already answered.  No it wouldn't.  It would be assault.  

And Joh'nyx, most people ARE born into their religions.  People raised within a religious framework, with no pressure to renounce their faith, will rarely do so.

Just because they dont doesnt mean they dont have the ability to. They are actively choosing to belong to their faith.

You are missing what im saying for some reason.

Child molestors is a category you belong to when you molest childs.

Being Gay is a category you belong to when you form your sexual identity, apparently at two years of age.

Being of a race is a category you are born into.

Each category "membership" is derived from different facts.

Is this more understandable?

Not really. You seem to be labouring under the misconception that any of the above reasons are relevent. People generally hate child molestors. So if a group of people beat someone to death, on the basis that they were a child molestor, (and they hated child molestors) would it be a hatecrime?
It's not difficult to understand the question is it?

No, killing a child molestor isnt a hate crime, because child molestors arent part of a minority that deserves extra-deterrent to be protected.

And what is the criteria by which we decide who 'deserves' special treatment?

[The Johnny]

You are missing what im saying for some reason.

Child molestors is a category you belong to when you molest childs.

Being Gay is a category you belong to when you form your sexual identity, apparently at two years of age.

Being of a race is a category you are born into.

Each category "membership" is derived from different facts.

Is this more understandable?

Not really. You seem to be labouring under the misconception that any of the above reasons are relevent. People generally hate child molestors. So if a group of people beat someone to death, on the basis that they were a child molestor, (and they hated child molestors) would it be a hatecrime?
It's not difficult to understand the question is it?

No, killing a child molestor isnt a hate crime, because child molestors arent part of a minority that deserves extra-deterrent to be protected.

And what is the criteria by which we decide who 'deserves' special treatment?

Minorities.

[BadBeast]

You are missing what im saying for some reason.

Child molestors is a category you belong to when you molest childs.

Being Gay is a category you belong to when you form your sexual identity, apparently at two years of age.

Being of a race is a category you are born into.

Each category "membership" is derived from different facts.

Is this more understandable?

Not really. You seem to be labouring under the misconception that any of the above reasons are relevent. People generally hate child molestors. So if a group of people beat someone to death, on the basis that they were a child molestor, (and they hated child molestors) would it be a hatecrime?
It's not difficult to understand the question is it?

No, killing a child molestor isnt a hate crime, because child molestors arent part of a minority that deserves extra-deterrent to be protected.

So by your criteria, some minorities do not deserve the full protection of the Law? That in itself, could be classed as "Hatespeech". Which is a Hatecrime. Just sayin'.