Author Topic: DM/Player Ownage  (Read 20999 times)

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: DM/Player Ownage
« Reply #135 on: February 04, 2017, 06:41:20 pm »
Wow.  As a rogue, you already have a ridiculous amount of skill points (8+INT, wasnt it?), I always dropped a few into Appraise.

If I'm going to be stealing shit, you better bet I'm going to get paid what it's worth.  And if I'm going to be stealing entire hordes of treasure, I want to know what's worth the most so I don't end up hauling a garden gnome by oxcart on the off chance it's worth a few bob.

You try to tell them, but they keep trying to have all the knowledge skills.  Each.  And diplomacy on a CHA of 8 or 10.
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Re: DM/Player Ownage
« Reply #136 on: February 04, 2017, 07:07:52 pm »
 :horrormirth:

Cain

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Re: DM/Player Ownage
« Reply #137 on: February 04, 2017, 07:28:52 pm »
I mean, shit, when I play a thief I put points in Haggling in Skyrim, and nobody puts perks in Speech in Skyrim.

What kind of thief needs to know about the planes and nature and geography and shit?  Are you going to steal the entire city of Sigil?  No, didn't think so.

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Re: DM/Player Ownage
« Reply #138 on: February 04, 2017, 08:34:46 pm »
Okay, I had this trap in Castle Gristlegrim (also noted for Battletech Kobolds), Coyote.  It was a room with a murky pool of water.  In that murky pool of water was a giant lobster in stasis.  Stasis ends when any living thing enters the water.  No party in their right mind is going anywhere near that water...They think.

Tied to the tail of the lobster was a wire that went through the wall, over a set of pulleys and a saw blade, up to the roof.  Above the center of the pool is a block of water soluble wax covering 50 KILOGRAMS of sodium (this comes back to haunt me later). 

An alcove on the side of the room on the left wall as you look in has a treasure chest.  The chest has an easily disabled (DC20) yet really hard to find (DC35) set of triggers.  When the chest is unlocked, a sound bubble spell goes off in a 15' radius to keep the rogue from hearing any screaming, and in the hall outside, the right wall sprays a mist of honey droplets on the PCs.  When the rogue opens the lid, the left wall sprays fire ants all over the party (heavy armor, LOL).  At that point, they are considered to be attacked by a swarm of army ants, and instead of saving vs distraction, they have to save to avoid jumping in the water.

When they do, the lobster comes out of statis and goes totally haywire on anyone in the water...Also pulling the rope around its tail across the saw blade, dropping the block of wax/sodium into the water.  Now there's a time limit (1d4+3 rounds) before the big kaboom (8d6, 20 ft radius, ref sv DC20 for half, nobody in the water gets to save).

That's how it was SUPPOSED to happen.  Here's how it really went down:

Fighter doesn't like the room layout at all, has the cleric cast resist energy (cold) on him, and goes back to the level 3 vending machine room (never gives you correct change for a torch, btw, and the trail rats taste like a dire rat shat in them), and got a patch of brown mold out of the corner, which they had previously avoided. 

He then walks back, tosses it in the water, and suggests that the party check out some other rooms first.  They come back later to a frozen pool with a block of wax sitting on it.  They take the loot, THEY TAKE THE SODIUM (party has a bomb now, LOL), and then they melt the ice away from the lobster and send Lefty the torch-bearer back to town for a couple of barrels of butter.

I fucking hate them.  I hates them forever. :crankey:

What CR would you give to an encounter like this? May just have to steal it.
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Don Coyote

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Re: DM/Player Ownage
« Reply #139 on: February 04, 2017, 09:50:34 pm »
Wow.  As a rogue, you already have a ridiculous amount of skill points (8+INT, wasnt it?), I always dropped a few into Appraise.

If I'm going to be stealing shit, you better bet I'm going to get paid what it's worth.  And if I'm going to be stealing entire hordes of treasure, I want to know what's worth the most so I don't end up hauling a garden gnome by oxcart on the off chance it's worth a few bob.

You try to tell them, but they keep trying to have all the knowledge skills.  Each.  And diplomacy on a CHA of 8 or 10.

But Roger, you need those points in Knowledge: tell me the fucking weakness of this monster so I can justify my memorization of the Bestiaries and so I can solve your custom monster.

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Re: DM/Player Ownage
« Reply #140 on: February 04, 2017, 10:39:35 pm »
Wow.  As a rogue, you already have a ridiculous amount of skill points (8+INT, wasnt it?), I always dropped a few into Appraise.

If I'm going to be stealing shit, you better bet I'm going to get paid what it's worth.  And if I'm going to be stealing entire hordes of treasure, I want to know what's worth the most so I don't end up hauling a garden gnome by oxcart on the off chance it's worth a few bob.
Bluff's important too, so you can get paid more than it's worth.
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: DM/Player Ownage
« Reply #141 on: February 05, 2017, 05:09:30 am »
Okay, I had this trap in Castle Gristlegrim (also noted for Battletech Kobolds), Coyote.  It was a room with a murky pool of water.  In that murky pool of water was a giant lobster in stasis.  Stasis ends when any living thing enters the water.  No party in their right mind is going anywhere near that water...They think.

Tied to the tail of the lobster was a wire that went through the wall, over a set of pulleys and a saw blade, up to the roof.  Above the center of the pool is a block of water soluble wax covering 50 KILOGRAMS of sodium (this comes back to haunt me later). 

An alcove on the side of the room on the left wall as you look in has a treasure chest.  The chest has an easily disabled (DC20) yet really hard to find (DC35) set of triggers.  When the chest is unlocked, a sound bubble spell goes off in a 15' radius to keep the rogue from hearing any screaming, and in the hall outside, the right wall sprays a mist of honey droplets on the PCs.  When the rogue opens the lid, the left wall sprays fire ants all over the party (heavy armor, LOL).  At that point, they are considered to be attacked by a swarm of army ants, and instead of saving vs distraction, they have to save to avoid jumping in the water.

When they do, the lobster comes out of statis and goes totally haywire on anyone in the water...Also pulling the rope around its tail across the saw blade, dropping the block of wax/sodium into the water.  Now there's a time limit (1d4+3 rounds) before the big kaboom (8d6, 20 ft radius, ref sv DC20 for half, nobody in the water gets to save).

That's how it was SUPPOSED to happen.  Here's how it really went down:

Fighter doesn't like the room layout at all, has the cleric cast resist energy (cold) on him, and goes back to the level 3 vending machine room (never gives you correct change for a torch, btw, and the trail rats taste like a dire rat shat in them), and got a patch of brown mold out of the corner, which they had previously avoided. 

He then walks back, tosses it in the water, and suggests that the party check out some other rooms first.  They come back later to a frozen pool with a block of wax sitting on it.  They take the loot, THEY TAKE THE SODIUM (party has a bomb now, LOL), and then they melt the ice away from the lobster and send Lefty the torch-bearer back to town for a couple of barrels of butter.

I fucking hate them.  I hates them forever. :crankey:

What CR would you give to an encounter like this? May just have to steal it.

The way you do this is you break it down into components, and assign each one the appropriate CR.  Then it gets a little complicated.

The giant lobster is a CR4 (per the monster entry)
The sodium is a CR4 (8d6 damage)
The ants/honey thing and the sound bubble would be a +1 to the total CR, taken together, as they make the trap more difficult but don't actually cause damage.

So it's 4, plus 2 for the second 4, +1 for the gimmicks = CR7.

I'd like to reiterate that fire ants inside of heavy armor is the cat's very ass.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: DM/Player Ownage
« Reply #142 on: February 05, 2017, 05:10:32 am »
Wow.  As a rogue, you already have a ridiculous amount of skill points (8+INT, wasnt it?), I always dropped a few into Appraise.

If I'm going to be stealing shit, you better bet I'm going to get paid what it's worth.  And if I'm going to be stealing entire hordes of treasure, I want to know what's worth the most so I don't end up hauling a garden gnome by oxcart on the off chance it's worth a few bob.
Bluff's important too, so you can get paid more than it's worth.

Yes, bluff vs sense motive.

But if the merchant's appraise check beats the DC by more than 5, he knows what the item is worth.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

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Re: DM/Player Ownage
« Reply #143 on: February 05, 2017, 04:05:27 pm »
Then after the fight he rolled up random loot.

 :lulz:

Where do these people come from?
Michigan, apparently.

1.  He didn't have the loot done BEFORE the game?  That's just being a lazy DM.

2.  Average loot per encounter per APL times the number of encounters = total GP.  The DM then buys the items he wants running around in his campaign, then buys non-coin loot, then places the items and loot in appropriate places.  This is so you don't have a guy running around with, for example, infinite potions of greater magic fang CL20 at level 3.

ETA: The total average loot for a 4 person party going from level 1 to level 2 should be about 3600 GP.

Roger, would you mind breaking down #2 a little bit more for a dumb guy?

Okay, you set up your encounters.  NPCs get equipped out of table 14-9 of the core rule book, this does not count as loot.

Then just make a list of encounters   Consult table 12-5, and use the appropriate column (left hand column for fast advancement experience, middle for middle, and right for slow).

Assuming medium, then, each encounter for a 3rd level party should be worth 800GP, assuming the average encounter is appropriate to the characters' levels.  Add up the number of encounters and multiply by 800 GP.  That's the total loot.  Then you go hit the magic item tables and buy the items you want in your campaign with up to half of that loot.  The other half should be 1/4 art work, 1/4 gems, and 1/2 coinage.  NOTE:  this doesn't have to be spread out evenly.  It can be the phat loot after the boss encounter, some might even be "unguarded" (har har har), etc. 

Assuming 14 encounters being enough to level a party up (less at 1st level), that means that you have 11,200 GP to hand out between the party making 3rd and making 4th (larger parties are accounted for by adjusting the APL by +1 on the loot charts as well as the encounter tables.)  Means:

7000 GP in magic items.  Total.
3500 GP in cash.
1750 in art work (jewelry, tapestries, paintings, etc)
1750 in gems

Also, don't just tell them how much art & gems are worth.  If nobody took appraise as a skill, then you can just smile at them as they sell the good stuff for pennies on the dollar.

Note that this system relies on the PCs having access to a large enough town for them to purchase level-appropriate magic items.  If they aren't,  goose up the magic a bit and back off on the gems.   But still have part of the treasure be a bigass statue or painting they have to lug around.  Because.

ETA:  Also remember that cursed items do not count as loot and should be placed according to your hatred of the players and all that is right and good about the world, and that if they don't beat the DC to identify the item by 10 or more, it comes up as a beneficial item.

So NPC gear doesn't count as loot... How is it measured? Each character the party meets has a certain amount allowed based on the party's level?
“Soon all of us will have special names” — Professor Brian O’Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." — Bob Dylan?

"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes" — Walt Whitman

Don Coyote

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Re: DM/Player Ownage
« Reply #144 on: February 05, 2017, 06:11:09 pm »

NPC gear is stuff like nonmagical arms and armor and miscellaneous adventuring gear like cook pots and rope. It's basically carte blanche to ignore mundane stuff and assume semi-competent NPCs have the basics they need to do their job. The total of all loot available is based on APL, but in order for NPCs to have the appropriate CR they need an appropriate amount of gear http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/creatingNPCs.html 

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Re: DM/Player Ownage
« Reply #145 on: February 05, 2017, 08:05:11 pm »
Ok, but what if an NPC is of higher level than the APL?
“Soon all of us will have special names” — Professor Brian O’Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." — Bob Dylan?

"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes" — Walt Whitman

Don Coyote

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Re: DM/Player Ownage
« Reply #146 on: February 05, 2017, 08:56:10 pm »
Ok, but what if an NPC is of higher level than the APL?

This table is for the actual "this stuff matters" stuff ie the magical doodads.

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: DM/Player Ownage
« Reply #147 on: February 06, 2017, 06:54:27 am »
I am working on a campaign based entirely on bad art, but - and this is the important thing - doing it without being silly.

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

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Re: DM/Player Ownage
« Reply #148 on: February 06, 2017, 02:18:45 pm »
I am working on a campaign based entirely on bad art, but - and this is the important thing - doing it without being silly.

Care to elaborate?
“Soon all of us will have special names” — Professor Brian O’Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." — Bob Dylan?

"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes" — Walt Whitman

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: DM/Player Ownage
« Reply #149 on: February 06, 2017, 08:19:38 pm »
I am working on a campaign based entirely on bad art, but - and this is the important thing - doing it without being silly.

Care to elaborate?

when I am more awake. 
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.