Horror-mirth and reaction formation

[Triple Zero]

Ok, Joh'Nyx, I found one. For me, this was the most recent, most clearest example of horrormirth:

(via The Guardian)

5.30pm:
With perfect timing an email arrives from Philip Crowley at the state department:

The United States is pleased to announce that it will host Unesco's World Press Freedom Day event in 2011, from 1-3 May in Washington, DC.

Ironic? Read the next paragraph from the press release:

The theme for next year's commemoration will be 21st Century Media: New Frontiers, New Barriers. The United States places technology and innovation at the forefront of its diplomatic and development efforts. New media has empowered citizens around the world to report on their circumstances, express opinions on world events, and exchange information in environments sometimes hostile to such exercises of individuals' right to freedom of expression. At the same time, we are concerned about the determination of some governments to censor and silence individuals, and to restrict the free flow of information. We mark events such as World Press Freedom Day in the context of our enduring commitment to support and expand press freedom and the free flow of information in this digital age.

Shameless. You really could not make it up.

Tell me you don't find this hilarious and horrible at the same time.

Horrormirth is when reality makes satire obsolete.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I think that when we laugh at the state of the world, deep down we are not fooling ourselves, its just merely a superficial defense towards the anxiety that we feel deep down.

Nope.  I really am a hateful bastard, Christ, I hate these monkeys so much that I want them actually GET what they've been SCREAMING for...A government and a society that will give them what they deserve.

Maybe horror-mirth needs to come along with misanthropy as to not be in reality a defense mechanism?

It can, but it doesn't need to... after all laughing at this shit may simply be because someone is looking at it from an absurdist perspective.

If however, the person actually believes they can make the world a better place... or that government is good, just screwed up by a few bad people... or that Hope and Change will fix our problems... or that somehow the Internet is gonna make all of our problems go away... Horror Mirth may well be some kind of defense mechanism for them.

Horrormirth is when reality makes satire obsolete.

Indeed, or when reality reinforces that it hass no grand plan, no greater purpose... rather its just a bunch of monkeys with access to nukes.

And honestly, who wouldn't find that funny as a tv show?

"Next week on All my Chimps, Rev Monkey tells everyone that sticking a banana in your butt is a sin against the Sky Monkey... but the poo hits the fan when he gets caught with Monkey Jr., a banana and Vaseline!"

[The Johnny]

Whether intentional or not, you appear to be positing that it can ONLY be that, in spite of the fact that some of us actually find that shit funny.

His choice:  Laugh or cry.

My choice:  Laugh or rage.  Usually both.  And it ain't anxiety, because I already KNOW we're fucked.  The worrying part is over.

No, i was paraphrasing other's responses that come up with the "laugh rather than cry" choice.

For myself, id choose not to react by laughing at tragedy (even if sometimes i get the impulse to do so) because of what ive stated i think lies behind it. My choice is under the logic that it is healthier in the long run - you dont think it is? Then keep on laughing it up.

Right now i looked at a superficial overview of the classification of Vaillant's hierarchy of defense mechanisms (i dont endorse it, for i havent read the work behind it to come up with such, but i think it can further this discussion):

Pathological

-delusional projection
-denial
-distortion
-splitting

Immature

-acting out
-fantasy
-idealization
-passive agression
-projection
-projective identification
-somatization

Neurotic

-Displacement
-Dissociation
-Hypochondriasis
-Intellectualization
-Isolation
-Rationalization
-Reaction formation
-Regression
-Repression
-Undoing

Mature

-Altruism
-Humour
-Identification
-Introjection
-Sublimation
-Thought suppression

Maybe im wrongly assuming that anyone that got interested in this thread would look up the definition or characteristics of reaction formation?

Because the arguments seem to be on two levels: that horror-mirth isnt reaction formation, and the other being that its good/healthy to use such defense.

[The Johnny]

I would say that it is fundamentally wrong to say defense mechanisms of any kind are superficial.  There's really no benefit to saying "well this facet of human experience is wrong, and this one is right."  You may not value your horrormirth, but that's your loss, not ours.

Superficial is probably the wrong word, but I do believe that a lot of these defence mechanisms are based in repressing emotions that are better let out properly. Such as swallowing your anger, hate or tears. But also "pleasing" people, going along with their [perceived] prompts [conflict avoidance], often in very subtle or subconscious ways.

One of the reasons I heard why it's better to let the emotions out, is that 1. keeping them in causes stress, which in turn 2. causes illness. But I don't have any evidence to cite for that [nr.2 is well-researched, though. nr.1, not so sure]. But another reason that I can attest from personal experience is that if you have learned from a young age to keep certain emotions subdued or diverted [and a lot of people have], you may never have learned to express them properly, to let them out and use them in a beneficial way. [I find I have this problem with anger, never really learned to use it properly, and when it comes out, it can make me cry and shake, which is not really a useful way of dealing with it, which in turn reinforces the idea to repress it again]

But I don't know yet really how to apply this to Horrormirth.

[It's kinda wishy-washy alternative stuff, which I learned at that Emotional Body Work course I started taking a while ago (I mentioned it in another thread). But I quit that because the teacher was a manipulative charlatan, ingrown in his "intuitive" ways, spouting bullshit, he would probably feel quite at home at TCC [except for the Wiccan and supernatural stuff]. When I called him to inform him I wouldn't be attending the last two classes of his course, he tried to talk me over, to convince me, with such perseverance it would even put an oldskool door-to-door salesman or Jehovah's Witness to shame (there were even a few thinly veiled threats about my health if I would quit).  I don't know yet if I'm going to say fuck it and leave it at this, or whether I should take some action. I kinda want to email one or two people from the group and ask what he said why I wouldn't be there anymore, or his version of the phone conversation.  I do know, however, that this person is incapable of communicating with me.  I did learn a couple of things though, so I believe it was the clash of our personalities, not the concept of Emotional Body Work, to be fair his method was pretty solid too, if only he'd get somebody else than him to teach it]

ANYWAY, sorry for the derail.

Horrormirth.

What about times when you laugh at something, and you immediately feel bad that you laughed, cause you shouldn't? (the squirrel catapult videos come to mind for me. They have me giggling, but also feeling sad for the squirrel)

I already commented on how i worded it incorrectly.

Not letting "emotions" or thoughts out and just repressing them makes for a nice time-bomb scenario, cause theres a limit to said repression which can manifest itself in weird symptoms, depending on the case.

You mention in several parts about swalling your anger to please others and later on that anger coming out in an intense episode, that seems like the defense known as "introyeccion" in spanish (in english i would assume its introjection, but the meaning seems to be different... its supposed to be a mechanism opposite to projection; in projection, one attributes their own feelings to others, while in introyection the others hostile feelings are accepted to avoid conflict).

Fuck the squirrel. But what if it was a human baby and you laughed?

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I would say that it is fundamentally wrong to say defense mechanisms of any kind are superficial.  There's really no benefit to saying "well this facet of human experience is wrong, and this one is right."  You may not value your horrormirth, but that's your loss, not ours.

Superficial is probably the wrong word, but I do believe that a lot of these defence mechanisms are based in repressing emotions that are better let out properly. Such as swallowing your anger, hate or tears. But also "pleasing" people, going along with their [perceived] prompts [conflict avoidance], often in very subtle or subconscious ways.

One of the reasons I heard why it's better to let the emotions out, is that 1. keeping them in causes stress, which in turn 2. causes illness. But I don't have any evidence to cite for that [nr.2 is well-researched, though. nr.1, not so sure]. But another reason that I can attest from personal experience is that if you have learned from a young age to keep certain emotions subdued or diverted [and a lot of people have], you may never have learned to express them properly, to let them out and use them in a beneficial way. [I find I have this problem with anger, never really learned to use it properly, and when it comes out, it can make me cry and shake, which is not really a useful way of dealing with it, which in turn reinforces the idea to repress it again]

But I don't know yet really how to apply this to Horrormirth.

[It's kinda wishy-washy alternative stuff, which I learned at that Emotional Body Work course I started taking a while ago (I mentioned it in another thread). But I quit that because the teacher was a manipulative charlatan, ingrown in his "intuitive" ways, spouting bullshit, he would probably feel quite at home at TCC [except for the Wiccan and supernatural stuff]. When I called him to inform him I wouldn't be attending the last two classes of his course, he tried to talk me over, to convince me, with such perseverance it would even put an oldskool door-to-door salesman or Jehovah's Witness to shame (there were even a few thinly veiled threats about my health if I would quit).  I don't know yet if I'm going to say fuck it and leave it at this, or whether I should take some action. I kinda want to email one or two people from the group and ask what he said why I wouldn't be there anymore, or his version of the phone conversation.  I do know, however, that this person is incapable of communicating with me.  I did learn a couple of things though, so I believe it was the clash of our personalities, not the concept of Emotional Body Work, to be fair his method was pretty solid too, if only he'd get somebody else than him to teach it]

ANYWAY, sorry for the derail.

Horrormirth.

What about times when you laugh at something, and you immediately feel bad that you laughed, cause you shouldn't? (the squirrel catapult videos come to mind for me. They have me giggling, but also feeling sad for the squirrel)

I already commented on how i worded it incorrectly.

Not letting "emotions" or thoughts out and just repressing them makes for a nice time-bomb scenario, cause theres a limit to said repression which can manifest itself in weird symptoms, depending on the case.

You mention in several parts about swalling your anger to please others and later on that anger coming out in an intense episode, that seems like the defense known as "introyeccion" in spanish (in english i would assume its introjection, but the meaning seems to be different... its supposed to be a mechanism opposite to projection; in projection, one attributes their own feelings to others, while in introyection the others hostile feelings are accepted to avoid conflict).

Fuck the squirrel. But what if it was a human baby and you laughed?

HEY!  WATCH IT BUDDY!

[The Johnny]

Ok, Joh'Nyx, I found one. For me, this was the most recent, most clearest example of horrormirth:

(via The Guardian)

5.30pm:
With perfect timing an email arrives from Philip Crowley at the state department:

The United States is pleased to announce that it will host Unesco's World Press Freedom Day event in 2011, from 1-3 May in Washington, DC.

Ironic? Read the next paragraph from the press release:

The theme for next year's commemoration will be 21st Century Media: New Frontiers, New Barriers. The United States places technology and innovation at the forefront of its diplomatic and development efforts. New media has empowered citizens around the world to report on their circumstances, express opinions on world events, and exchange information in environments sometimes hostile to such exercises of individuals' right to freedom of expression. At the same time, we are concerned about the determination of some governments to censor and silence individuals, and to restrict the free flow of information. We mark events such as World Press Freedom Day in the context of our enduring commitment to support and expand press freedom and the free flow of information in this digital age.

Shameless. You really could not make it up.

Tell me you don't find this hilarious and horrible at the same time.

Horrormirth is when reality makes satire obsolete.

Well it did get a mix of a sneer and a smile out of me.

In first instance, as a reaction that takes me by surprise on how shameless and cynic the action is i do tend toward a smile.

But after those initial moments have passed i feel anger.

If someone handed you a plate with your pet as a steak, im sure one would laugh out of surprise/conflict before getting really angry.

[The Johnny]

I would say that it is fundamentally wrong to say defense mechanisms of any kind are superficial.  There's really no benefit to saying "well this facet of human experience is wrong, and this one is right."  You may not value your horrormirth, but that's your loss, not ours.

Superficial is probably the wrong word, but I do believe that a lot of these defence mechanisms are based in repressing emotions that are better let out properly. Such as swallowing your anger, hate or tears. But also "pleasing" people, going along with their [perceived] prompts [conflict avoidance], often in very subtle or subconscious ways.

One of the reasons I heard why it's better to let the emotions out, is that 1. keeping them in causes stress, which in turn 2. causes illness. But I don't have any evidence to cite for that [nr.2 is well-researched, though. nr.1, not so sure]. But another reason that I can attest from personal experience is that if you have learned from a young age to keep certain emotions subdued or diverted [and a lot of people have], you may never have learned to express them properly, to let them out and use them in a beneficial way. [I find I have this problem with anger, never really learned to use it properly, and when it comes out, it can make me cry and shake, which is not really a useful way of dealing with it, which in turn reinforces the idea to repress it again]

But I don't know yet really how to apply this to Horrormirth.

[It's kinda wishy-washy alternative stuff, which I learned at that Emotional Body Work course I started taking a while ago (I mentioned it in another thread). But I quit that because the teacher was a manipulative charlatan, ingrown in his "intuitive" ways, spouting bullshit, he would probably feel quite at home at TCC [except for the Wiccan and supernatural stuff]. When I called him to inform him I wouldn't be attending the last two classes of his course, he tried to talk me over, to convince me, with such perseverance it would even put an oldskool door-to-door salesman or Jehovah's Witness to shame (there were even a few thinly veiled threats about my health if I would quit).  I don't know yet if I'm going to say fuck it and leave it at this, or whether I should take some action. I kinda want to email one or two people from the group and ask what he said why I wouldn't be there anymore, or his version of the phone conversation.  I do know, however, that this person is incapable of communicating with me.  I did learn a couple of things though, so I believe it was the clash of our personalities, not the concept of Emotional Body Work, to be fair his method was pretty solid too, if only he'd get somebody else than him to teach it]

ANYWAY, sorry for the derail.

Horrormirth.

What about times when you laugh at something, and you immediately feel bad that you laughed, cause you shouldn't? (the squirrel catapult videos come to mind for me. They have me giggling, but also feeling sad for the squirrel)

I already commented on how i worded it incorrectly.

Not letting "emotions" or thoughts out and just repressing them makes for a nice time-bomb scenario, cause theres a limit to said repression which can manifest itself in weird symptoms, depending on the case.

You mention in several parts about swalling your anger to please others and later on that anger coming out in an intense episode, that seems like the defense known as "introyeccion" in spanish (in english i would assume its introjection, but the meaning seems to be different... its supposed to be a mechanism opposite to projection; in projection, one attributes their own feelings to others, while in introyection the others hostile feelings are accepted to avoid conflict).

Fuck the squirrel. But what if it was a human baby and you laughed?

HEY!  WATCH IT BUDDY!

See, it made me laugh that you found it funny in a reaction sort of manner, but after some moments its just horrible, not funny.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Whether intentional or not, you appear to be positing that it can ONLY be that, in spite of the fact that some of us actually find that shit funny.

His choice:  Laugh or cry.

My choice:  Laugh or rage.  Usually both.  And it ain't anxiety, because I already KNOW we're fucked.  The worrying part is over.

No, i was paraphrasing other's responses that come up with the "laugh rather than cry" choice.

For myself, id choose not to react by laughing at tragedy (even if sometimes i get the impulse to do so) because of what ive stated i think lies behind it. My choice is under the logic that it is healthier in the long run - you dont think it is? Then keep on laughing it up.

Right now i looked at a superficial overview of the classification of Vaillant's hierarchy of defense mechanisms (i dont endorse it, for i havent read the work behind it to come up with such, but i think it can further this discussion):

Pathological

-delusional projection
-denial
-distortion
-splitting

Immature

-acting out
-fantasy
-idealization
-passive agression
-projection
-projective identification
-somatization

Neurotic

-Displacement
-Dissociation
-Hypochondriasis
-Intellectualization
-Isolation
-Rationalization
-Reaction formation
-Regression
-Repression
-Undoing

Mature

-Altruism
-Humour <--------------------YOU FORGOT THIS ONE.
-Identification
-Introjection
-Sublimation
-Thought suppression

Maybe im wrongly assuming that anyone that got interested in this thread would look up the definition or characteristics of reaction formation?

Because the arguments seem to be on two levels: that horror-mirth isnt reaction formation, and the other being that its good/healthy to use such defense.

Please see bolding in your above post.

[Triple Zero]

Ok, Joh'Nyx, I found one. For me, this was the most recent, most clearest example of horrormirth:

(via The Guardian)

5.30pm:
With perfect timing an email arrives from Philip Crowley at the state department:

The United States is pleased to announce that it will host Unesco's World Press Freedom Day event in 2011, from 1-3 May in Washington, DC.

Ironic? Read the next paragraph from the press release:

The theme for next year's commemoration will be 21st Century Media: New Frontiers, New Barriers. The United States places technology and innovation at the forefront of its diplomatic and development efforts. New media has empowered citizens around the world to report on their circumstances, express opinions on world events, and exchange information in environments sometimes hostile to such exercises of individuals' right to freedom of expression. At the same time, we are concerned about the determination of some governments to censor and silence individuals, and to restrict the free flow of information. We mark events such as World Press Freedom Day in the context of our enduring commitment to support and expand press freedom and the free flow of information in this digital age.

Shameless. You really could not make it up.

Tell me you don't find this hilarious and horrible at the same time.

Horrormirth is when reality makes satire obsolete.

Well it did get a mix of a sneer and a smile out of me.

In first instance, as a reaction that takes me by surprise on how shameless and cynic the action is i do tend toward a smile.

But after those initial moments have passed i feel anger.

Really? It's still cracking me up, that. And honestly not out of defence reaction, it is funny in and of itself.

I can get some of your other examples, but this one? Just plain hilarious.

If someone handed you a plate with your pet as a steak, im sure one would laugh out of surprise/conflict before getting really angry.

I fail to see the analogy, how is announcing a world-press freedom day similar to serving me my pet as a steak cut?

It's not really surprise/conflict. In this case, it's a very very fine form of irony.

[The Johnny]

Im not sure now.

For example, i started thinking of South Park - it makes laugh a lot, but the themes they cover are usually horrible things of real life.

Horror-mirth seems to cut the middle man (being it the TV show in this case).

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Im not sure now.

For example, i started thinking of South Park - it makes laugh a lot, but the themes they cover are usually horrible things of real life.

Horror-mirth seems to cut the middle man (being it the TV show in this case).

If you get why black comedy is funny, you should also understand why when it happens in real life, it's still funny.

[Phox]

Im not sure now.

For example, i started thinking of South Park - it makes laugh a lot, but the themes they cover are usually horrible things of real life.

Horror-mirth seems to cut the middle man (being it the TV show in this case).

If you get why black comedy is funny, you should also understand why when it happens in real life, it's still funny.

Bingo. Horrible shit is horrible. And yet at the same time, I laugh. Especially when  people deserve it. And most people really deserve it.

[East Coast Hustle]

I'm just surprised that living in Mexico these days hasn't made Joh'Nyx the world's leading proponent of horrormirth.

I mean, the Zetas? Beltran Leyva? Sinaloa? It's like a sitcom, only in real life and with 30,000 homicides.

[The Johnny]

I wonder if i need to work on that, or if it stops being funny at a certain point.

I still think that horror-mirth is derived from anxiety and/or misanthropy, but maybe its not reaction formation... maybe its just irony and satire while cutting the middle-men comedians.

[Phox]

I wonder if i need to work on that, or if it stops being funny at a certain point.

I still think that horror-mirth is derived from anxiety and/or misanthropy, but maybe its not reaction formation... maybe its just irony and satire while cutting the middle-men comedians.

Bingo. The world is a parody +of itself.