Prison Bans Books and Disco Pickle Learns a Lesson

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Ok, then it assumes at the least that only black or poor people get a bad defense.

No. It doesn't. It assumes that black or poor people are disproportionately targeted by police, oft times unfairly. Welcome to the South Side, if the cops come, run. Doesn't matter if you didn't do anything, they don't care.

I have a response to this, but I think I've had too much beer to say it coherently.  My first reaction is that you're correct, except that there are black and poor police as well now, so you would think that this would go away with time.  Except that there will always be people who commit crimes against other people.

Guess which kind of cops are hardest on Blacks?   

[Disco Pickle]

I don't think so, I prefer to just be a dick. It sure as hell beats being a blind idealist.

I'd say arguing that the system is so broken it has to be scrapped is far more idealistic than accepting it for its' flaws and acknowledging it's advances since the dawn of human law.

One day I hope you have first hand experience of the system. In fact I will even pray for it.

I'm nicer to police that I am to any other people on the planet.  I also don't put myself in situations that could possibly result in loosing my rights.  I don't LIKE them, but I realize it's in my best interest to do so.  It's done me pretty well so far.  

If for some reason something does ever happen, I will be devouring books about it as fast as I can put them down and yes, I will pay a lawyer to spend more than 5 hours a day thinking about how to get me out of it.  I'll consider it money well spent.

[East Coast Hustle]

dishonest argument.  I said committing a crime is a choice.

Yep. my in law totally chose to get arrested, taken to prison, and then charged with smuggling weed into that prison based on what he had on his person when he was searched.

I don't actually know anyone dumb enough to take drugs into a prison.  I find it hard to sympathize with anyone who would.  

Charged with =/= tried to do.

ok, yeah.  As ECH mentioned, a cop planting something on you means you can get pretty fucked and railroaded.  I see no long term solution for this short of screening potential cops for this sort of behavior.  Good luck with that.

There's no need for a long-term "solution", as you call it, because as far as the people who oversee the system are concerned the system works perfectly. And the fact that nobody has offered you an example of a preferable codified alternative is a pretty poor reason for being in favor of an entrenched system that actively seeks to punish and extract labor from people rather than educating them and rehabilitating them. In essence, your argument is "fuck if I care how unjust it all is, I'm just glad that guy who robbed the convenience store down the street got what he deserved in the form of a 40-year slavery sentence!"

[Disco Pickle]

***WARNING***CUNT MODE***


LA LA LA LA LA LA LA


What? I know god damned well I am one of the few here with personal experience in a capitol murder trial with a death penalty sentence, yet I was ignored by DP. 


So..... yeah....


LA LA LA LA LA LA LA

there were a lot of posts.  I wasn't ignoring you.  this place swarms like sharks when there's blood in the water.  I'm actually going to crash, but I'll reply in the morning. 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

That tells me you didn't read the fucking article. The under-cover agent who entrapped people GOT A FUCKING MEDAL FOR IT.


"There'll always be some bad cops", my ASS.

reading now, but the subtext of the title disqualifies it from this discussion as I was and am still talking about crimes against person and property and those who commit those crimes.

reading anyway.

Yes, because the only people in prison are those who committed crimes against person or property?  How do you even begin to justify your contribution to this thread?

I earlier qualified by dismissing drug related offenses, and if I didn't include nonviolent offenses then it was an oversight.  You'll find me very libertarian on drug laws and their enforcement.  "Victimless Crimes" are not, in my opinion, crimes at all.

Then what is the relevance of your opinion of the justice and prison system to this thread?

[East Coast Hustle]

On the national scale, it is an Industry, and turning people into criminals generates profit.

and that IS terrifying.  Intentionally criminalizing and putting in jail people is a dark road.  Not at all what I'm defending.

it is EXACTLY what you are defending when you defend the practices that exist solely to enable it and serve no other useful function to society at large.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.

then please, tell me all you know of causality and how it relates to humans and their actions, their election of lawmakers, and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country.  

I'd like just one example of a human doing something that could be ever be thought of as being "random"

If that sounds dickish, it's not intended.  I really am learning from you guys.  I'm not just some "right wing nutjob" as the good Rev. insists.

Causality? Whatcha want? Deontological philosophy? Sorry, I've seen enough to figure out that there isn't a grand set of rules to follow in terms of human behavior. Predictable patterns of behavior don't exist, because if they did, deviations would be far rarer and there wouldn't be so many variables that affect it. As for the election of lawmakers and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country? Fuck, I could pay off the cops in this town with what's in my pocket, a smile, and a short skirt and get off scott free for anything short of murder. Faith in the system? Not me.

If predictable patterns of behavior didn't exist then car insurance companies would be right proper fucked.  I believe there's another thread about this sort of thing that Nigel started.

while I've no doubt and even evidence that happens here, it's hardly on par with a country like say Mexico, where a $20 got me out of a potentially bad situation and another one got me over the border from Belize.  

So you must have lost faith in any system devised by humans.  

I believe I'm starting to really understand now.  It's terrifying btw.

Oh, yeah, that stuff happens in smudgy, unfurnished countries...But not here.  Ho ho!

jebus fuck, I never said it DIDN'T HAPPEN.  Sometimes, I think you argue just to argue.

What, you think the "wrong people" don't get railroaded in countries where the melanin in your skin puts you in the minority?

name me a country that does it better for crimes against person or property.

Canada, Denmark, Holland, Germany...Oh, wait.  You only wanted one.

[East Coast Hustle]

Ok, then it assumes at the least that only black or poor people get a bad defense.

No. It doesn't. It assumes that black or poor people are disproportionately targeted by police, oft times unfairly. Welcome to the South Side, if the cops come, run. Doesn't matter if you didn't do anything, they don't care.

I have a response to this, but I think I've had too much beer to say it coherently.  My first reaction is that you're correct, except that there are black and poor police as well now, so you would think that this would go away with time.  Except that there will always be people who commit crimes against other people.

You just don't WANT to get it. The black cops and the poor cops are 100x times harder on black and poor people.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

The only difference between here and a place like Mexico is that in the good old US of A, you need to add an extra zero or three to the bribe amount.

Now stop flapping your gums as though you even have the slightest fucking clue what you're talking about, please. You're obviously intent on ignoring the REALITY of our legal system in favor of some Houghton-Mifflin 6th grade civics class textbook.

There's no showing an objectivist anything, ECH.  They have to learn the hard way.

[Disco Pickle]

dishonest argument.  I said committing a crime is a choice.

Yep. my in law totally chose to get arrested, taken to prison, and then charged with smuggling weed into that prison based on what he had on his person when he was searched.

I don't actually know anyone dumb enough to take drugs into a prison.  I find it hard to sympathize with anyone who would.  

Charged with =/= tried to do.

ok, yeah.  As ECH mentioned, a cop planting something on you means you can get pretty fucked and railroaded.  I see no long term solution for this short of screening potential cops for this sort of behavior.  Good luck with that.

There's no need for a long-term "solution", as you call it, because as far as the people who oversee the system are concerned the system works perfectly. And the fact that nobody has offered you an example of a preferable codified alternative is a pretty poor reason for being in favor of an entrenched system that actively seeks to punish and extract labor from people rather than educating them and rehabilitating them. In essence, your argument is "fuck if I care how unjust it all is, I'm just glad that guy who robbed the convenience store down the street got what he deserved in the form of a 40-year slavery sentence!"

unfair argument.  I have clearly said that privatized prisons and ones that use labor for private profit are abhorrent.  I've also said that educating them is the best possible solution, excepting that not everyone can be rehabilitated.

[Phox]

dishonest argument.  I said committing a crime is a choice.

Yep. my in law totally chose to get arrested, taken to prison, and then charged with smuggling weed into that prison based on what he had on his person when he was searched.

I don't actually know anyone dumb enough to take drugs into a prison.  I find it hard to sympathize with anyone who would.  

Charged with =/= tried to do.

ok, yeah.  As ECH mentioned, a cop planting something on you means you can get pretty fucked and railroaded.  I see no long term solution for this short of screening potential cops for this sort of behavior.  Good luck with that.

There's no need for a long-term "solution", as you call it, because as far as the people who oversee the system are concerned the system works perfectly. And the fact that nobody has offered you an example of a preferable codified alternative is a pretty poor reason for being in favor of an entrenched system that actively seeks to punish and extract labor from people rather than educating them and rehabilitating them. In essence, your argument is "fuck if I care how unjust it all is, I'm just glad that guy who robbed the convenience store down the street got what he deserved in the form of a 40-year slavery sentence!"

unfair argument.  I have clearly said that privatized prisons and ones that use labor for private profit are abhorrent.  I've also said that educating them is the best possible solution, excepting that not everyone can be rehabilitated.

Bullshit.

[Disco Pickle]

dishonest argument.  I said committing a crime is a choice.

Yep. my in law totally chose to get arrested, taken to prison, and then charged with smuggling weed into that prison based on what he had on his person when he was searched.

I don't actually know anyone dumb enough to take drugs into a prison.  I find it hard to sympathize with anyone who would.  

Charged with =/= tried to do.

ok, yeah.  As ECH mentioned, a cop planting something on you means you can get pretty fucked and railroaded.  I see no long term solution for this short of screening potential cops for this sort of behavior.  Good luck with that.

There's no need for a long-term "solution", as you call it, because as far as the people who oversee the system are concerned the system works perfectly. And the fact that nobody has offered you an example of a preferable codified alternative is a pretty poor reason for being in favor of an entrenched system that actively seeks to punish and extract labor from people rather than educating them and rehabilitating them. In essence, your argument is "fuck if I care how unjust it all is, I'm just glad that guy who robbed the convenience store down the street got what he deserved in the form of a 40-year slavery sentence!"

unfair argument.  I have clearly said that privatized prisons and ones that use labor for private profit are abhorrent.  I've also said that educating them is the best possible solution, excepting that not everyone can be rehabilitated.

Bullshit.

what, all of it?

[East Coast Hustle]

I have clearly said that privatized prisons and ones that use labor for private profit are abhorrent.  

Well, that's only ALL OF THEM.

[Disco Pickle]

I have clearly said that privatized prisons and ones that use labor for private profit are abhorrent. 

Well, that's only ALL OF THEM.

link?

[Disco Pickle]

I'm crashing out of this thread and consciousness for the night.  It's clear I have the wrongest of the wrong values as far as you fuckers are concerned.  I'll take that into serious consideration.  Thanks for the opposing viewpoints.