Prison Bans Books and Disco Pickle Learns a Lesson

[East Coast Hustle]

Jesus, Pickle...if you keep digging your heels in over such an obviously stupid position as the one you've taken ITT, you're gonna lose your biped cred for real, not just jokes like the one I made a few pages back.

I suspect that you're suffering from some cognitive dissonance as a result of trying to couch your terms to reflect your objectivist/libertarian views even though the reality of the subject matter is absolutely 100% incompatible with an objectivist/libertarian viewpoint. Feel free to go read the Chapel Perilous thread now.

[Prince Glittersnatch III]

Wow this thread suffered a rather interesting derailment.




Im going to chime in by saying that based on my own experience with the law, I can agree that its full of people who want to screw you.
When I had my first major run-in with the law(It was for something I didnt do), for the first and last time in my life I honestly began to consider that there was some massive Kafka conspiracy against me. That wasnt the case however, it was just the fact that the system is full of people who have it in their best interest to screw you over.

[trippinprincezz13]

But that presentation completely leaves out the fact that the only way to end up in the system is to break laws that are on the books.

By now, there's probably a few hundred people who have been released on DNA evidence who would disagree with that.

Granted, but we're getting better at taking that evidence into consideration.  We're adapting to the technology.  Admittedly slowly, but it's happening.  And a few hundred is probably a conservative estimate, though I haven't any figures at the moment to say otherwise.

It is still a system created by humans, with all of the problems that entails.

Yeah.  I got dragged though the criminal justice system by the heels a few years back, and I can tell you this:  Whether or not you go to jail is determined SOLELY by what quality of lawyer you can AFFORD.

Speaking as a paralegal....

I know I'm about 10 pages back but...a thousand times THIS. Sure there are the cases of wrongful accusations that may get sorted out ahead of time somehow, maybe a lenient Judge that feels bad for you if you don't have a record and haven't committed a terrible crime. But the differences between going in with no lawyer, a court appointed lawyer and a good private lawyer are significant. Heck, even how and when and how much you pay the private lawyer makes a difference.  Much like everyone in jail MUST be guilty, certainly all the clients my boss have gotten off the hook at 500% innocent.

[trippinprincezz13]

Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.

Not being poor and Brown is a matter of personal responsibility, you know.  15 year old Jose may or may not have robbed that convenience store, but what the hell?  He's smudgy and we caught him walking down the street 4 blocks away.

Nothing random about that.

Holy shit, I'm still waaay behind on this conversation but...holy shit, yes. There was a recent case handled by another lawyer in this office where "Mr. Sanchez/Nunez/Other Generic Non-White Person was accused of shoplifting, from a convenience store, disposable razors. Nevermind that there were no cameras showing anyone stealing (it was alleged that there was), the manager DIDN'T EVEN KNOW what or how many were allegedly stolen, NO-ONE SAW HIM TAKE ANYTHING, nothing was recovered, but the manager thought some Hispanic guy looked suspicious (couldn't give a description other than "brown person") but guys girlfriend was waiting outside, police threatened her with this and that so she said that he went in the store for something and he was arrested. The manager didn't even show up in Court, wouldn't provide a copy of the store's surveillance from that day, sent a teenage/twenty-something clerk who had no clue what was going in to stand in for him (without letting anyone know) and the DA STILL WANTED TO GO FORWARD. Needless to say the case was eventually dismissed, but not after the DA tried to get him to plead out first.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Speaking as a paralegal....

I am told experience means nothing, actually.  IF the world suddenly wised up, and everyone acted rationally, there wouldn't be a problem.  Ergo, there is no problem.  It's an objectivist's paradise, I tells ya!

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.

Not being poor and Brown is a matter of personal responsibility, you know.  15 year old Jose may or may not have robbed that convenience store, but what the hell?  He's smudgy and we caught him walking down the street 4 blocks away.

Nothing random about that.

Holy shit, I'm still waaay behind on this conversation but...holy shit, yes. There was a recent case handled by another lawyer in this office where "Mr. Sanchez/Nunez/Other Generic Non-White Person was accused of shoplifting, from a convenience store, disposable razors. Nevermind that there were no cameras showing anyone stealing (it was alleged that there was), the manager DIDN'T EVEN KNOW what or how many were allegedly stolen, NO-ONE SAW HIM TAKE ANYTHING, nothing was recovered, but the manager thought some Hispanic guy looked suspicious (couldn't give a description other than "brown person") but guys girlfriend was waiting outside, police threatened her with this and that so she said that he went in the store for something and he was arrested. The manager didn't even show up in Court, wouldn't provide a copy of the store's surveillance from that day, sent a teenage/twenty-something clerk who had no clue what was going in to stand in for him (without letting anyone know) and the DA STILL WANTED TO GO FORWARD. Needless to say the case was eventually dismissed, but not after the DA tried to get him to plead out first.

I have also been told, in this thread, that it's okay if a "few people" get their lives ruined.  You know, for The Perfect State™.

Also, because sometimes people stab other people.  Locking up Brown people is the only way to be safe.

[Adios]

I thought some of you may be interested in these statistics from the Innocence Project, which has now had some 100 death sentences overturned based upon post-conviction evidence.  According to their study of the first 70 cases reversed:

    Over 30 of them involved prosecutorial misconduct.
    Over 30 of them involved police misconduct which led to wrongful convictions.
    Approximately 15 of them involved false witness testimony.
    34% of the police misconduct cases involved suppression of exculpatory evidence.  11% involved evidence fabrication.
    37% of the prosecutorial misconduct cases involved suppression of exculpatroy evidence.  25% involved knowing use of false testimony.
http://caught.net/innoc.htm

Just a few facts about the foundation of bones in the attempt of attaining utopia.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.

Not being poor and Brown is a matter of personal responsibility, you know.  15 year old Jose may or may not have robbed that convenience store, but what the hell?  He's smudgy and we caught him walking down the street 4 blocks away.

Nothing random about that.

Holy shit, I'm still waaay behind on this conversation but...holy shit, yes. There was a recent case handled by another lawyer in this office where "Mr. Sanchez/Nunez/Other Generic Non-White Person was accused of shoplifting, from a convenience store, disposable razors. Nevermind that there were no cameras showing anyone stealing (it was alleged that there was), the manager DIDN'T EVEN KNOW what or how many were allegedly stolen, NO-ONE SAW HIM TAKE ANYTHING, nothing was recovered, but the manager thought some Hispanic guy looked suspicious (couldn't give a description other than "brown person") but guys girlfriend was waiting outside, police threatened her with this and that so she said that he went in the store for something and he was arrested. The manager didn't even show up in Court, wouldn't provide a copy of the store's surveillance from that day, sent a teenage/twenty-something clerk who had no clue what was going in to stand in for him (without letting anyone know) and the DA STILL WANTED TO GO FORWARD. Needless to say the case was eventually dismissed, but not after the DA tried to get him to plead out first.

I have also been told, in this thread, that it's okay if a "few people" get their lives ruined.  You know, for The Perfect State™.

Also, because sometimes people stab other people.  Locking up Brown people is the only way to be safe.

Yeah. Anyway, I heard they steal.

[trippinprincezz13]

Speaking as a paralegal....

I am told experience means nothing, actually.  IF the world suddenly wised up, and everyone acted rationally, there wouldn't be a problem.  Ergo, there is no problem.  It's an objectivist's paradise, I tells ya!

Whoops, my bad. I guess I've just been working in imaginationland for the past 7 years. I guess our repeat clients have only been in the wrong place at the wrong time every single time. And Mr. Convenience Store Owner above knew that Mr. Hispanic did steal those (unspecified) items with his psychic abilities.  


Nevermind when I had a medical bill that I had already paid up (they wont pull your wisdom teeth unless you pay IN FULL up front), explained this to the oral surgeon in a letter, was told to fuck off and pay. Then when my boss had me copy & paste my letter on to his letterhead and they said "whoops, sorry to bother you". It wasnt because he was a lawyer, my original letter must have been lost in the mail  

[Disco Pickle]

Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.

Not being poor and Brown is a matter of personal responsibility, you know.  15 year old Jose may or may not have robbed that convenience store, but what the hell?  He's smudgy and we caught him walking down the street 4 blocks away.

Nothing random about that.

Holy shit, I'm still waaay behind on this conversation but...holy shit, yes. There was a recent case handled by another lawyer in this office where "Mr. Sanchez/Nunez/Other Generic Non-White Person was accused of shoplifting, from a convenience store, disposable razors. Nevermind that there were no cameras showing anyone stealing (it was alleged that there was), the manager DIDN'T EVEN KNOW what or how many were allegedly stolen, NO-ONE SAW HIM TAKE ANYTHING, nothing was recovered, but the manager thought some Hispanic guy looked suspicious (couldn't give a description other than "brown person") but guys girlfriend was waiting outside, police threatened her with this and that so she said that he went in the store for something and he was arrested. The manager didn't even show up in Court, wouldn't provide a copy of the store's surveillance from that day, sent a teenage/twenty-something clerk who had no clue what was going in to stand in for him (without letting anyone know) and the DA STILL WANTED TO GO FORWARD. Needless to say the case was eventually dismissed, but not after the DA tried to get him to plead out first.

I have also been told, in this thread, that it's okay if a "few people" get their lives ruined.  You know, for The Perfect State™.

Also, because sometimes people stab other people.  Locking up Brown people is the only way to be safe.

Yeah. Anyway, I heard they steal.

I'm still a few pages back on replies but really needed to address this.  I haven't been calling it "The Perfect State" or even that that can ever be achieved.  Some of you are also making assumptions about my beliefs (I'm hardly an Objectivist, and don't believe a Utopia of any flavor is possible).  The idea that any legal system created by people could ever be perfect enough to ensure that no one is ever falsely accused, arrested, tried or convicted sounds a damn sight more Utopian than accepting that what we have now, while flawed, still has checks and balances that help to prevent this sort of thing and is also fluid and able to be changed over time when mistakes are identified.

and Rev. the fact of the matter is that Men, minorities, and low income people are more likely to be victims of crime and more likely to commit crime, [EDIT] and the rate of violent crime DID increase throughout the 70's and 80's, prompting calls for stricter laws. [/EDIT]  That's the statistical reality.  I often forget that you don't actually want to help, or at the least your idea of helping would likely be to just let everyone out and start over from the beginning.  

What sort of legal system would you even accept?  Is there one?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I often forget that you don't actually want to help, or at the least your idea of helping would likely be to just let everyone out and start over from the beginning.  

wat

[Disco Pickle]

I often forget that you don't actually want to help, or at the least your idea of helping would likely be to just let everyone out and start over from the beginning.  

wat

wouldn't that create the lulz, chaos and disorder you so adore?

[Adios]

I often forget that you don't actually want to help, or at the least your idea of helping would likely be to just let everyone out and start over from the beginning.  

wat

How does it feel to have words stuffed in your mouth?

Even if the true error rate of America's criminal justice system is only ten percent, this translates to 200,000 innocent people presently behind bars in the United States. It means that there are more innocent prisoners in America than there are prisoners of all kinds in France, Germany and Britain combined.

[Dysfunctional Cunt]

I often forget that you don't actually want to help, or at the least your idea of helping would likely be to just let everyone out and start over from the beginning.  

wat

How does it feel to have words stuffed in your mouth?

Even if the true error rate of America's criminal justice system is only ten percent, this translates to 200,000 innocent people presently behind bars in the United States. It means that there are more innocent prisoners in America than there are prisoners of all kinds in France, Germany and Britain combined.

But Charley, they chose to be there.....

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I often forget that you don't actually want to help, or at the least your idea of helping would likely be to just let everyone out and start over from the beginning.  

wat

How does it feel to have words stuffed in your mouth?

Even if the true error rate of America's criminal justice system is only ten percent, this translates to 200,000 innocent people presently behind bars in the United States. It means that there are more innocent prisoners in America than there are prisoners of all kinds in France, Germany and Britain combined.

Meanwhile, rates of violent crime have been plummeting for over 20 years, but the incarceration rate has skyrocketed.

But the disco pickle is around the bend, now. He's not even responding to the people here, he's just frothing at the mouth and ranting.