Curious about a concept in the BIP

[Luna]

By the way, what the hell is a "defarious purpose", anyway?

That's when you take the fairies out of something intentionally.

You are a bad man who hates spritely little magical creatures.

Those fuckers ever come around here, and I'll stuff them in a gunny sack and beat 'em against the wall.

Horrible little shits.

FAERIE JELLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good on toast, once you pick out the sparkly bits.

[Don Coyote]

By the way, what the hell is a "defarious purpose", anyway?

That's when you take the fairies out of something intentionally.

You are a bad man who hates spritely little magical creatures.

Those fuckers ever come around here, and I'll stuff them in a gunny sack and beat 'em against the wall.

Horrible little shits.

FAERIE JELLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good on toast, once you pick out the sparkly bits.

Designing my next ren-faire costume.

[Wyldkat]

Ok, I'll wade trudge through here.

First off,
"The world's greatest fool may say the Sun is shining, but that doesn't make it dark out."  - EY, Less Wrong.

WK, you have noticed that some aspect of your shamanism/neoshamanism beliefs seem to fit in with one aspect of the BIP (don't forget, there's the biological half as well as the psychologial).  You're confused as to why we would trash shamanism, if they have a similar belief.

Well, the bible says this (Proverbs 1):

20 Out in the open wisdom calls aloud,
  she raises her voice in the public square;
21 on top of the wall she cries out,
  at the city gate she makes her speech:
22 "How long will you who are simple love your simple ways?
  How long will mockers delight in mockery
  and fools hate knowledge?
23 Repent at my rebuke!
  Then I will pour out my thoughts to you,
  I will make known to you my teachings.
24 But since you refuse to listen when I call
  and no one pays attention when I stretch out my hand,
25 since you disregard all my advice
  and do not accept my rebuke,
26 I in turn will laugh when disaster strikes you;
  I will mock when calamity overtakes you—
27 when calamity overtakes you like a storm,
  when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind,
  when distress and trouble overwhelm you.
28 "Then they will call to me but I will not answer;
  they will look for me but will not find me,
29 since they hated knowledge.

Which certainly aligns with my understanding of Discordia.  But does that mean I should not mock the Christians?  Of course not.  Because while there may be a common element to be found (and RWHN was right for calling out the Lo5 on some of that), the underlying belief systems are wildly disparate.

Shamanism, and the neoshamanism that followed, seems to be primarily concerned with, and revolves around, communication and access with some sort of hidden "Spirit World", and concocts elaborate rituals and sometimes ingests chemicals to reach it.  Dress up the language all you want, but that's what the intent is.  And my brand of Discordia rejects that wholeheartedly.  My brand of Discordia believes in Fermions, Bosons and Gluons.  My brand of Discordia believes that so-called "trancendent" mental states are self-reflecting and physical.  There is no "Spirit World" to contact.  The "Spirit World" is another bar in the BIP, not the BIP itself.  

You might argue that you personally consider the "Spirit World" to be a metaphor.  But that would mean you're not practicing Shamanism, you're engaged in psychological self-deception, intentionally deluding yourself.  Which my Discordia also rejects.  My Discordia seeks to remove layers of deceit to reveal underlying thought processes and patterns, not to add additional piles of bullshit onto an already unstable mental system.  Because, as we have repeatedly found out, any time someone develops a metaphor, someone will always try to stretch and manipulate it to the breaking point, until it becomes useless and meaningless (often known as the "PD Principle").  So my understanding of the BIP includes the understanding that it is itself an imperfect model, whereas your offshoot neoshamanistic insight is considered a Truth.



But what do I know?  I only coined the term.*












*Stole it from PKD and used it for my own defarious purposes, more like.

I had a feeling that this was gonna get buried in the various side discussions, so I'm bumping it, because I liked writing it.

Thank you very much.  I really enjoyed this post.

I actually do not consider the Spirit World a metaphor.  I also find very little trouble personally resolving science and my spiritual beliefs AND I am quite aware that my beliefs are a bar (or bars) in my prison/construct.  My understanding of what I practice is that it is an imperfect model itself and not Truth, although it may be Truth for me at times, that is definitely not always the case.

For people who are curious about how I got to the point I'm at:  I started out Catholic, learned about Wicca before internet access when all I had were books and no local people and read literally everything I could find about Wicca and paganism.  Then I met someone who practiced shamanism and became interested in it.  I read, once again,  literally everything I could find access to on the subject (although I don't think I actually read any Casteneda somehow, I might have read one book...?).  I took Comparative Religion and Philosophy courses, which helped add to my path.  I also talked to many people over the years who walk the path with different training backgrounds.  I do not and have not attempted to follow any specifically Native American tribal practices because I have not been trained in them and that would be disrespectful.  I have studied shamanism from around the world.  My personal background is Northern European in an area where shamanism is still practiced and I've tried to get more information on that particular branch, but it is hard to come by.  Beyond that, a lot of practice and trail and error on my part.

[Luna]

By the way, what the hell is a "defarious purpose", anyway?

That's when you take the fairies out of something intentionally.

You are a bad man who hates spritely little magical creatures.

Those fuckers ever come around here, and I'll stuff them in a gunny sack and beat 'em against the wall.

Horrible little shits.

FAERIE JELLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good on toast, once you pick out the sparkly bits.

Designing my next ren-faire costume.

Send pics.

That's something I may have to do...  Haven't been to the local ren faire in YEARS.  May have to go this fall.

[Cardinal Pizza Deliverance.]

Then there will be smushed faeries everywhere.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I actually do not consider the Spirit World a metaphor.

That's because your brain is wired wrong.

[LMNO]

I actually do not consider the Spirit World a metaphor.  I also find very little trouble personally resolving science and my spiritual beliefs

In case you were wondering, this is why most of us mock you.

[Cain]

I actually do not consider the Spirit World a metaphor.  I also find very little trouble personally resolving science and my spiritual beliefs

In case you were wondering, this is why most of us mock you.

Guilty as charged.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I actually do not consider the Spirit World a metaphor.  I also find very little trouble personally resolving science and my spiritual beliefs

In case you were wondering, this is why most of us mock you.

Shit yeah.  Starving people all over the world, and she has 15 years of leisure time to indulge in make-believe as an adult.

How American™ is that?

[Don Coyote]

By the way, what the hell is a "defarious purpose", anyway?

That's when you take the fairies out of something intentionally.

You are a bad man who hates spritely little magical creatures.

Those fuckers ever come around here, and I'll stuff them in a gunny sack and beat 'em against the wall.

Horrible little shits.

FAERIE JELLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good on toast, once you pick out the sparkly bits.

Designing my next ren-faire costume.

Send pics.

That's something I may have to do...  Haven't been to the local ren faire in YEARS.  May have to go this fall.

Too bad I lost access to the seamstress I thought was I my friend.

I actually do not consider the Spirit World a metaphor.  I also find very little trouble personally resolving science and my spiritual beliefs

In case you were wondering, this is why most of us mock you.

You mean the Spirit World isn't real?

[Luna]

I actually do not consider the Spirit World a metaphor.  I also find very little trouble personally resolving science and my spiritual beliefs

In case you were wondering, this is why most of us mock you.

Shit yeah.  Starving people all over the world, and she has 15 years of leisure time to indulge in make-believe as an adult.

How American™ is that?

About as American™ as it gets. 

At least my make-believe I KNOW is make-believe... and I at least do it with good folks who are (in some cases) closer than family.

[Lord Cataplanga]

...
For people who are curious about how I got to the point I'm at:  I started out Catholic, learned about Wicca before internet access when all I had were books and no local people and read literally everything I could find about Wicca and paganism.  Then I met someone who practiced shamanism and became interested in it.  I read, once again,  literally everything I could find access to on the subject (although I don't think I actually read any Casteneda somehow, I might have read one book...?).  I took Comparative Religion and Philosophy courses, which helped add to my path.  I also talked to many people over the years who walk the path with different training backgrounds.  I do not and have not attempted to follow any specifically Native American tribal practices because I have not been trained in them and that would be disrespectful.  I have studied shamanism from around the world.  My personal background is Northern European in an area where shamanism is still practiced and I've tried to get more information on that particular branch, but it is hard to come by.  Beyond that, a lot of practice and trail and error on my part.

What exactly does "trial and error" mean in this context?
How do you tell the difference between success and failure?

[Cain]

Correlation equals causation.  Of course.

[Luna]

...
For people who are curious about how I got to the point I'm at:  I started out Catholic, learned about Wicca before internet access when all I had were books and no local people and read literally everything I could find about Wicca and paganism.  Then I met someone who practiced shamanism and became interested in it.  I read, once again,  literally everything I could find access to on the subject (although I don't think I actually read any Casteneda somehow, I might have read one book...?).  I took Comparative Religion and Philosophy courses, which helped add to my path.  I also talked to many people over the years who walk the path with different training backgrounds.  I do not and have not attempted to follow any specifically Native American tribal practices because I have not been trained in them and that would be disrespectful.  I have studied shamanism from around the world.  My personal background is Northern European in an area where shamanism is still practiced and I've tried to get more information on that particular branch, but it is hard to come by.  Beyond that, a lot of practice and trail and error on my part.

What exactly does "trial and error" mean in this context?
How do you tell the difference between success and failure?

Read this:

http://www.amazon.com/House-Stairs-William-Sleator/dp/0140345809/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1305572558&sr=1-1

Pretty clear illustration in it on how people determine the difference between success and failure.

[Don Coyote]

...
For people who are curious about how I got to the point I'm at:  I started out Catholic, learned about Wicca before internet access when all I had were books and no local people and read literally everything I could find about Wicca and paganism.  Then I met someone who practiced shamanism and became interested in it.  I read, once again,  literally everything I could find access to on the subject (although I don't think I actually read any Casteneda somehow, I might have read one book...?).  I took Comparative Religion and Philosophy courses, which helped add to my path.  I also talked to many people over the years who walk the path with different training backgrounds.  I do not and have not attempted to follow any specifically Native American tribal practices because I have not been trained in them and that would be disrespectful.  I have studied shamanism from around the world.  My personal background is Northern European in an area where shamanism is still practiced and I've tried to get more information on that particular branch, but it is hard to come by.  Beyond that, a lot of practice and trail and error on my part.

What exactly does "trial and error" mean in this context?
How do you tell the difference between success and failure?

Read this:

http://www.amazon.com/House-Stairs-William-Sleator/dp/0140345809/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1305572558&sr=1-1

Pretty clear illustration in it on how people determine the difference between success and failure.

I should read that book again.