London Riots: An Alternate Juxtaposition

[Cramulus]

Meant more along the lines of someone should tell them their doing it wrong.

Make a sign, with distance to the capital?

Point in the right direction?

out of curiosity, what do you think the libyan people should have done this spring? also nonviolent protests?

is there an appropriate time to flip over cars and break glass?

question two - the people who sparked the riots after Duggan was shot - what kinds of changes would they have accomplished if they had made signs and stood patiently outside of Parliament?

[Doktor Howl]

question two - the people who sparked the riots after Duggan was shot - what kinds of changes would they have accomplished if they had made signs and stood patiently outside of Parliament?

As I understand the anti-terrorism laws in the UK, they'd have gone to prison, and that would be that.

It also assumes anyone in parliament gives half a tug on a dead dog's dick about people holding signs.

[Adios]

Meant more along the lines of someone should tell them their doing it wrong.

Make a sign, with distance to the capital?

Point in the right direction?

Oh fuck, did they forget to read Rioting for Dummies? As an American I can only envy that they care enough to hit the streets.

[iarmit]

Not to confuse the issue further, but, Doktor Howl, Cramulus, are you
suggesting that directing the rage of the people against those in their
community- who suffer under the same government- would better serve
the rioters than directing their attentions toward the government?

I only ask, because from what i've read just here, Disco Pickle is not
saying they should cease all activity, but only that they should direct it
towards the proper persons.

[Doktor Howl]

Not to confuse the issue further, but, Doktor Howl, Cramulus, are you
suggesting that directing the rage of the people against those in their
community- who suffer under the same government- would better serve
the rioters than directing their attentions toward the government?

I only ask, because from what i've read just here, Disco Pickle is not
saying they should cease all activity, but only that they should direct it
towards the proper persons.

I am of the opinion that it is the complacency and self-satisfaction of the people in general that allowed the underlying problems to occur.  Thus, the rioters ARE directing it toward the proper persons...The people that elected parliament in the first place.

[Disco Pickle]

I'm not seeing the part of the image that says capitalism is only useful for killing people

It mentions sword, club, sword, and system of economics.  All (supposedly) weapons used for killing.  At least that's how I read it.  Maybe using "only" useful is a bit too much.  

What I see is that it's confusing to identify the real "cause" of violence,

and also that we are blind to some forms violence because they are inherent to a system we like.

Hadn't thought of it that way.  The fact that he doesn't answer the question makes that easier to see.  Yeah.  I'm with you.  

Going back to the sword and club part, they are not inherently violent, but must be wielded with the intent to be violent.  They can also be used to defend from violence, to protect.

I'll give it some more thought.

wait - who's talking about chaos marxism ITT?

it's not my blog, and please don't assume that because I read a blog and occasionally x-post from it, I agree with everything Doloras says. I love the way she thinks and writes, but we do disagree on plenty.

Didn't say we were, but since I had no other basis for comparison on what you think on the economic front ready, it seemed handy to mention it as a possibility, but I was curious as to whether you were the writer.  That question's answered.  Didn't mean to imply you were 100% with anyone.  Just didn't know.

[Disco Pickle]

Not to confuse the issue further, but, Doktor Howl, Cramulus, are you
suggesting that directing the rage of the people against those in their
community- who suffer under the same government- would better serve
the rioters than directing their attentions toward the government?

I only ask, because from what i've read just here, Disco Pickle is not
saying they should cease all activity, but only that they should direct it
towards the proper persons.

I am of the opinion that it is the complacency and self-satisfaction of the people in general that allowed the underlying problems to occur.  Thus, the rioters ARE directing it toward the proper persons...The people that elected parliament in the first place.

And that is a damn fair argument.  I'm inclined to agree if I get a few Wiskeys in me.  But it's the murdering of those people that will turn EVERYONE against them, even the ones who started out sympathetic.

[Doktor Howl]

I'm not seeing the part of the image that says capitalism is only useful for killing people

It mentions sword, club, sword, and system of economics.  All (supposedly) weapons used for killing.  At least that's how I read it.  Maybe using "only" useful is a bit too much.  

Capitalism has always been built on stacks of dead bodies.  It's just that, until recently, most of those dead bodies were brown, and in unfurnished countries that nobody gave a fuck about.

[Doktor Howl]

Not to confuse the issue further, but, Doktor Howl, Cramulus, are you
suggesting that directing the rage of the people against those in their
community- who suffer under the same government- would better serve
the rioters than directing their attentions toward the government?

I only ask, because from what i've read just here, Disco Pickle is not
saying they should cease all activity, but only that they should direct it
towards the proper persons.

I am of the opinion that it is the complacency and self-satisfaction of the people in general that allowed the underlying problems to occur.  Thus, the rioters ARE directing it toward the proper persons...The people that elected parliament in the first place.

And that is a damn fair argument.  I'm inclined to agree if I get a few Wiskeys in me.  But it's the murdering of those people that will turn EVERYONE against them, even the ones who started out sympathetic.

Hearts and minds can be a good thing, but scaring the shit out of everyone can occasionally be useful, too.

[Adios]

Not to confuse the issue further, but, Doktor Howl, Cramulus, are you
suggesting that directing the rage of the people against those in their
community- who suffer under the same government- would better serve
the rioters than directing their attentions toward the government?

I only ask, because from what i've read just here, Disco Pickle is not
saying they should cease all activity, but only that they should direct it
towards the proper persons.

I am of the opinion that it is the complacency and self-satisfaction of the people in general that allowed the underlying problems to occur.  Thus, the rioters ARE directing it toward the proper persons...The people that elected parliament in the first place.

And that is a damn fair argument.  I'm inclined to agree if I get a few Wiskeys in me.  But it's the murdering of those people that will turn EVERYONE against them, even the ones who started out sympathetic.

It sure is easy to be critical when you are safe in your living room far away from what is happening, no?

[Cramulus]

Didn't say we were, but since I had no other basis for comparison on what you think on the economic front ready, it seemed handy to mention it as a possibility, but I was curious as to whether you were the writer.  That question's answered.  Didn't mean to imply you were 100% with anyone.  Just didn't know.

it's all good!

Not to confuse the issue further, but, Doktor Howl, Cramulus, are you
suggesting that directing the rage of the people against those in their
community- who suffer under the same government- would better serve
the rioters than directing their attentions toward the government?

You can't look at the riots like they're just this bizarro form of a traditional protest.

It's an emotional reaction being expressed by an extended social network.

It's not like they got together and made a list of the ways they could fix their environment and then picked the most logical option. They were mad and they had nothing to lose. The best question to ask is WHY did they have nothing to lose? And WHY was this a better option than a civil protest?

I am not condoning the rioter's actions - lots of innocent people were harmed, lots of damage was done, and lots of mistrust was built up. Surely it was not the most elegant way to respond to the death of Mark Duggan.



Let's not forget that the American revolutionary war was sparked by some irresponsible kids throwing snowballs at soldiers.

Let's not forget that the Boston Tea Party was initially dismissed as the act of a lawless mob.

[BabylonHoruv]

This one isn't a jab at you Cram.  Just another view.  I respect what you're doing, I just think it's a bit one sided.

How they act when they reach that boiling point varies... sometimes it's a democratic protest, other times its flipping over cars and smashing windows. How they react is partly due to the environment. (what's that quote ... "those who make peaceful protest impossible make violent protest inevitable")

I'm pretty sure that quote is JFK, and that he uses the word revolution rather than protest.

Very apt in this case, after the way the police have been treating peaceful protesters.

[iarmit]

Hearts and minds can be a good thing, but scaring the shit out of everyone can occasionally be useful, too.

You can't look at the riots like they're just this bizarro form of a traditional protest.

It's an emotional reaction being expressed by an extended social network.

It's not like they got together and made a list of the ways they could fix their environment and then picked the most logical option. They were mad and they had nothing to lose. The best question to ask is WHY did they have nothing to lose? And WHY was this a better option than a civil protest?

I am not condoning the rioter's actions - lots of innocent people were harmed, lots of damage was done, and lots of mistrust was built up. Surely it was not the most elegant way to respond to the death of Mark Duggan.



Let's not forget that the American revolutionary war was sparked by some irresponsible kids throwing snowballs at soldiers.

Let's not forget that the Boston Tea Party was initially dismissed as the act of a lawless mob.

I thank you both. I only wished to understand better what you were driving at.
I can't say that I don't agree with you both, I suppose I am just
disappointed that, as things stand now, all of this will have been in vain.

[Doktor Howl]

Didn't say we were, but since I had no other basis for comparison on what you think on the economic front ready, it seemed handy to mention it as a possibility, but I was curious as to whether you were the writer.  That question's answered.  Didn't mean to imply you were 100% with anyone.  Just didn't know.

it's all good!

Not to confuse the issue further, but, Doktor Howl, Cramulus, are you
suggesting that directing the rage of the people against those in their
community- who suffer under the same government- would better serve
the rioters than directing their attentions toward the government?

You can't look at the riots like they're just this bizarro form of a traditional protest.

It's an emotional reaction being expressed by an extended social network.

It's not like they got together and made a list of the ways they could fix their environment and then picked the most logical option. They were mad and they had nothing to lose. The best question to ask is WHY did they have nothing to lose? And WHY was this a better option than a civil protest?

I am not condoning the rioter's actions - lots of innocent people were harmed, lots of damage was done, and lots of mistrust was built up. Surely it was not the most elegant way to respond to the death of Mark Duggan.



Let's not forget that the American revolutionary war was sparked by some irresponsible kids throwing snowballs at soldiers.

Let's not forget that the Boston Tea Party was initially dismissed as the act of a lawless mob.

Duggan was just the last straw.

And peaceful protests only work when the general public or the government can be shamed.  If Gandhi had tried his act on the Nazis, it would have been over immediately.  The Brits were harsh at first, reflexively...But they were, at that time, still capable of feeling shame on a national level.

The UK (and the USA) no longer has that capability.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Didn't say we were, but since I had no other basis for comparison on what you think on the economic front ready, it seemed handy to mention it as a possibility, but I was curious as to whether you were the writer.  That question's answered.  Didn't mean to imply you were 100% with anyone.  Just didn't know.

it's all good!

Not to confuse the issue further, but, Doktor Howl, Cramulus, are you
suggesting that directing the rage of the people against those in their
community- who suffer under the same government- would better serve
the rioters than directing their attentions toward the government?

You can't look at the riots like they're just this bizarro form of a traditional protest.

It's an emotional reaction being expressed by an extended social network.

It's not like they got together and made a list of the ways they could fix their environment and then picked the most logical option. They were mad and they had nothing to lose. The best question to ask is WHY did they have nothing to lose? And WHY was this a better option than a civil protest?

I am not condoning the rioter's actions - lots of innocent people were harmed, lots of damage was done, and lots of mistrust was built up. Surely it was not the most elegant way to respond to the death of Mark Duggan.



Let's not forget that the American revolutionary war was sparked by some irresponsible kids throwing snowballs at soldiers.

Let's not forget that the Boston Tea Party was initially dismissed as the act of a lawless mob.

Duggan was just the last straw.

And peaceful protests only work when the general public or the government can be shamed.  If Gandhi had tried his act on the Nazis, it would have been over immediately.  The Brits were harsh at first, reflexively...But they were, at that time, still capable of feeling shame on a national level.

The UK (and the USA) no longer has that capability.

So fucking true