Uncomfortable topics: Let's talk about race

[Placid Dingo]

I'm a super weird puppy because I love love love racial conversations and find them interesting. A lot of my friends have different racial backgrounds, and my DingoGF is Chinese Australian. My favourite part getting to know someone is when you're comfortable enough to have those types of conversation and joke around; DingoGF tells me she's a banana because she's White on the inside, and I'm a... I can't remember what it was actually but you get the idea. Those candid discussions on identity.

I teach kids Japanese so there's a lot of 'why do They...' style questions; I take on discussions about differences- culture, race, ethnicity etc - as a big part of what I do professionally. It's super interesting when I teach them how to express nationality in Japanese because a lot come up and say 'I'm from Zimbabwe/Laos/New Zealand' what should i say? I tell them they can identify how they like: say 'zimbabwean' or 'zimbabwean and australian' or just 'Australian'. Your choice.

I assume it's a big issue in America for the same reason but there's a lot of anger over race from outraged dickheads horrified that someone legally 1/16th Aboriginal can get funding assistance based on race (because of course, they're not a REAL Aboriginal).

I remember resulting years ago that stereotypes weren't just harmful to 'other' races; I remember being in high school and wondering 'What IS White culture? Do we have one?'

Anyway that's my assortment of related thoughts.

[Roly Poly Oly-Garch]

I teach kids Japanese so there's a lot of 'why do They...' style questions; I take on discussions about differences- culture, race, ethnicity etc - as a big part of what I do professionally. It's super interesting when I teach them how to express nationality in Japanese because a lot come up and say 'I'm from Zimbabwe/Laos/New Zealand' what should i say? I tell them they can identify how they like: say 'zimbabwean' or 'zimbabwean and australian' or just 'Australian'. Your choice.

That's gotta be a kick getting to deal with the genuine unfiltered perspectives like that. They're lucky you genuinely enjoy it. I can imagine all kinds of hyper-puckered adult reactions to straight-forward questions like that.

[Cain]

There is a little incident going on in the UK currently which deals quite nicely with the "non-white European/perception of racism" issues.

Diane Abbott, a black MP for Labour, quite far on the left of the party, made a comment on Twitter about how "white people" like to use "divide and conquer", a colonial tatic.  Her tweet was, apparently, in the context of defending the idea there was a black community, and that historically the (white) elite of the UK have tried to prevent one from arising.

Abbott has since been subjected to three days of screeching from Tory bloggers whose fee-fees are hurt and are claiming they are victims of racism (readers of Corey Robin's The Reactionary Mind will know this is a signature method of conservatism, the self-pitying victimisation and aping of left-liberal concerns in a dishonest guise). 

Abbot is then pressured by her party leadership into offering an apology.

This should be contrasted with how David Starkey was treated, when he turned the London riots into a racial issue by claiming "black culture" was at the root of the riots.  Starkey, a historian, has not been asked to apologise, and indeed had many defenders among the people now attacking Diane Abbott.

IMO, Abbott's statement was probably too broad and simplistic for a current understanding of how racial issues are politically manipulated, but historically speaking she is correct, and besides, it's fucking Twitter.  Nevertheless, it shows a very deep uncomfortableness with non-white people criticizing racial issues in the UK.  That this happened so quicky after the Stephen Lawrence verdict, one which exposes the degree of institutional racism in the British police, is probably not a coincidence either.

[BadBeast]

She's been told if she repeats any sentiments like that, she'll be sacked. And told to apologise. Although quite who she is supposed to have offended I can't seem to make out.

The Independent is quoting the Tory MP for Stratford, Nadhim Zahawi, who said "This is racism. If this was a white Member of Parliament saying, 'All black people want to do bad things to us,' they would have resigned within the hour or been sacked."

It looks like "Call me Dave" hasn't wasted the chance to get one of his Asian
MPs to defend honest white folks from the racist attacks, from the horrid racist black woman in the opposition. And rather than just ignore the furore for the load of complete reactionary bollocks that it is, Milliband has jumped through the hoop of PC held up for him by the Tory Press like the good little bitch that he is. I fucking hate them all.

[Triple Zero]

She's been told if she repeats any sentiments like that, she'll be sacked. And told to apologise.

Shouldn't it be one or the other?

I mean, once they sack her, how would they get her to apologize? Whipping?

[BadBeast]

Sorry, badly worded. She's been told to apologise, and that if she voices opinions like that again, she will be sacked.
And whipped. (We have got whips in Parliament, specially for that purpose)

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Fucking hell. 'Cause it's so awful to point out history.

[Golden Applesauce]

I'm still kinda collecting my thoughts on this. Perspectives change over time too.

At this point, I generally think of people along what they self-identify as. As far as white people go, I don't think of them as white, or of whiteness, but I do think of them as this or that, as opposed to, or just like, me. For example, my drummer self-identifies as Italian, and he acts as much as an Italian as I do an Irishman. And yet, he's just as Irish as he is Italian (a quarter). It bothers me when people refer to their background as white. It makes me wonder if they're a crazy racist, since I'm used to white people, no matter how Americanized, identifying with one or two European backgrounds. I just don't like it as a label of any sort, unless it's used as self-mockery.

:raises hand:

I mean, I'm one of those jerks who fills in "Prefer not to respond" on every race/gender multiple choice form (if you're not actively paying me for it, you don't get any valuable demographic info,) but if I were being honest and talking about race I'd have to identify as predominantly "White."  Both of my grandmothers were Irish [Catholic], which makes me half-Irish, with my grandfathers being American with generalized English/Germanic European.  My last name is English, my middle name is some Scottish clan designation, and I think I'm technically a Fitzpatrick.  But both of my grandmothers were also raging alcoholics, and didn't pass a lot of Irish culture down to my parents.  Or maybe they avoided it because they didn't want to be like their mothers?  I dunno.  Either way, I certainly didn't end up with much of it.

I could identify as "Irish", but it just seems kind of silly.  It's like - why would it matter?  In highschool I lived in the suburbs of a city which used to have Irish vs. German zones, but then Black people moved in and I guess the Germans and Irish realized they had more in common than they thought?  Either way, not having grown up there and having an English last name made it irrelevant; it's not like people can tell by looking at you.  (Maybe if my hair had stayed red longer I would have cared?)  At this point, picking Irish would be like looking for an excuse to feel personally offended by the Potato Famine.

That said, I do like books/movies which have heavy Irish culture - maybe thinking it was something that my life had missed out on?  But I had the same feeling when I read Tom Sawyer and thought that he was having a more exciting childhood than I was.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Twid, just out of curiosity, do you feel similarly about people who just identify as "black"?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Twid, just out of curiosity, do you feel similarly about people who just identify as "black"?

I put my hand on my wallet and stare fixedly ahead, with no expression on my face, until the elevator door opens.  Then I get out, even if it's not my floor, and wonder if I should call the police or security.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

No i dont. Its weird. But like i said black people in the new world cant really pin down where their ancestors are from and thats probably part of it. But the more i think about it the more im concluding its how white people use the word white. They only bring it up when whiteys rights are getting trampled on by libruls muslims and mexicans. It ties in with a whole bunch of other things like if someone were to say "youre white start acting like it" or some other stupid shit like that. It makes me prefer identifying with a national heritage. Having an immigrant father strengthens that too.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

That said i had a senegalese professor who i would describe as senegalese before i would describe her as black. So i do prefer to avoid racial identifiers if i can help it.

And i consider lmno white since his dads last name was iii

[navkat]

White Americans, from my observation, are indeed (mostly) very uncomfortable being called white, and I think that the reason is because they are not very comfortable with anything that reminds them of race.

White people will also often go to ridiculous lengths to avoid describing someone as black. I'm like, say it, man. Just say it. It is an easily identifiable physical attribute, JUST FUCKING SAY IT. Don't dance around with this "Well, he's about six feet tall, short hair, glasses, likes to wear plaid jackets" crap as if I am seriously going to believe that you haven't noticed he's black.

I fully admit to doing that, and having it put that way it sounds utterly ridiculous, unless of course it's a room full of black people.

Same thing happened with the friend that I mentioned a while ago. He was pointing out a mutual friend's brother in a group of 3 blond dudes and one black dude. Went something like this:

Vinny: He's the Aryan looking one.
Me: Uh.... which one?

I like to sometimes gratuitously describe someone as white when everyone else is white too.

"Hey, I think you work with my friend Todd!"
"Huh... I don't know, what does he look like?"
"Well, he's white... (pause) brown hair, blue eyes, about five foot ten..."

Yeah, it's trolling. But it's fun.

And thank fuck for trolling. Laughing about shit is the only way anything ever gets done. I think it's the coloured (yeah, I said it. You got a better word for everyone from Russell Peters to Chris Rock?) and bold white comedians have done more in the way of social progress and changing attitudes than a VW full of Mexican day-workers...I mean clowns...I mean Jews.

Okay, for serious: I grew up kind of fucked up and really couldn't afford to turn down love no matter who it came from. Usually that meant freaks, jews, queers and all kinds of minorities. Sometimes, *I* was the minority...aka: "that crazy white girl with the hair dyed red/purple/blue who walks around singin all damned day and thinks she's Madonna or something."

I learned about the birds and the bees from "Genre" magazine and LIGaLY.
I learned how to dance from a puerto rican transgendered lady named Destiny and a black dude who *still* wears a Hi-top (think Kid n Play) haircut...named Josh.
I learned about computers from a rag-tag bunch of (forgive me) "uncle tom" multicoloured (most likely, Asperger's) nerds who spent their study and lunch hours in the computer lab because the thought of wasting that time on inane conversation with stupid people was more torturous than the idea of remaining a "freak." I played RPGs with a similar motley crew.

My nerdy, racially mixed friends, growing up did shit like impromptu scavenger hunts and shit we called "Land Pirating." We drove around wealthy neighborhoods, snagging christmas decorations and then decked that shit out on some poor person's lawn...or worse: we'd arrange them beautifully on the lawn of the local Jehovah's Witness fam. We hung out in the Peter Pan Diner and called ourselves The Lost Boys

When I was 15, I ran away from home with a white girl who looked like Christina Applegate. I eventually ended up living in DFW with a boy named Elvis who was part native and had a huge dick.

I may very well be one of the few people who doesn't really see race when I'm looking at you or talking to you...simply because I'm a hodge-podge social idiot.

Sometimes I succumb to tell and enjoy racial jokes...because they're dumb and they're funny and everyone knows they're not really true...except when there's an element of truth in them.  This is the shit that makes the hurt go away. This is what takes the sting out.

To me, anyway...but I'm just a white girl...a freaky, bookish, oddball, RPG-playing, few female friend-having, cat-ears-and-scarves-in-July wearin white girl...with no parental supervision except when it involved bruises.

What do *I* know?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

No i dont. Its weird. But like i said black people in the new world cant really pin down where their ancestors are from and thats probably part of it. But the more i think about it the more im concluding its how white people use the word white. They only bring it up when whiteys rights are getting trampled on by libruls muslims and mexicans. It ties in with a whole bunch of other things like if someone were to say "youre white start acting like it" or some other stupid shit like that. It makes me prefer identifying with a national heritage. Having an immigrant father strengthens that too.

Most white Americans whose families have been here a long time have ancestors from a number of European countries, though, so you couldn't really pin down where their ancestors are from, either.

Out here on the West coast, I have heard a number of people either say they don't know what their ancestry is, or that they're "American mutt". Lots of people say "I dunno, white I guess" when I ask them. And those who think they know are often wrong; look at the case of my mother's family. One aunt insisted we were Welsh, another that we were English, but when my mom got her genes indexed it turns out we're Orcadian.

People move around, and identifying as a member of a culture you're not actually part of makes little sense.

Also, regardless of what Roger says, Irish is not a race!

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Also, regardless of what Roger says, Irish is not a race!

Correct.  It is a genus.