Uncomfortable topics: Let's talk about race

[Nephew Twiddleton]

True. I guess thats part of my discomfort describing myself as white. I might have more in common with a hypothetical black bostonian with an irish immigrant parent than my midwestern friends. But that goes back to a previous post. I think of phil lynnott as an irishman rather than a black dude with a white mother. Its a separate topic than race but still ties in to a degree.

[BadBeast]

True. I guess thats part of my discomfort describing myself as white. I might have more in common with a hypothetical black bostonian with an irish immigrant parent than my midwestern friends. But that goes back to a previous post. I think of phil lynnott as an irishman rather than a black dude with a white mother. Its a separate topic than race but still ties in to a degree.

I always saw Phil Lynott as Brazilian, with an Oirish accent. He'd still be alive today if his idiotic in-laws had taken him to Hospital when he OD'd, instead of dumping him at fucking rehab! (I know this because I went to the same rehab he was dumped at) But it was too late for rehab by then. And too late for Hospital by the time they realised he wasn't just gauching out, but had no vital signs. Oops.   

[Nephew Twiddleton]

This may be an interewsting exercise right here bb.

Why do you consider him brazilian and why do i consider him irish? And ill try to keep my own irishness out of the equation as i consider this further.

[Golden Applesauce]

Culture has a whole different relevancy, but people very often conflate culture and race... such as my ex who used to tell me that I am "culturally white".

I'm starting to wonder if "culturism" isn't hot shiny new thing in racism.  There's a professor at my old college who teaches history through the lens of culture.  As in, "Muslim culture has never produced anything of scientific value, because their religion forbids them from studying the natural laws of the universe.  All the great inventions came from the free West, because they valued a spirit of inquiry."  He even has a book where he meticulously explains how the "more democratic/free" (i.e., Western) society always wins wars.  Except when they don't, which is because they weren't being faithful to their core values of Westerness.

It lets you make statements like "Of course black people are our intellectual and spiritual peers - race is entirely superficial.  The reason they're doing so poorly is because their inferior culture - the black community is doing poorly academically and professionally because they don't have the WASP's intellectual curiosity or work ethic" and be not racist, because you're completely okay with black people who "escape" their culture and act like civilized human beings white people.

It has the added benefit that you can call anyone who disagrees with you a relativist, who as we all know lack morals.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Your prof is obviously full of shit since muslims were responsible for our current understanding of astronomy and mathematics.

[Golden Applesauce]

Your prof is obviously full of shit since muslims were responsible for our current understanding of astronomy and mathematics.

I'm really not sure how he missed the origins of the word "Algebra."  Or how he manages to hang on at moderately liberal Catholic university that actively recruits exchange students from the Middle East.

[BadBeast]

This may be an interewsting exercise right here bb.

Why do you consider him brazilian and why do i consider him irish? And ill try to keep my own irishness out of the equation as i consider this further.

I think probably because he was black. And it was the mixed negro/hispanic/native black of Brazil, not West Indian Black.
Growing up as he did, in a one parent family in Ireland, I doubt if he comfortably identified as "Irish" due to his colour. And if he had grown up in Brazil, the fact he was half Irish wouldn't have factored in whether he was Brazilian. Irish bloodlines (In Ireland) are generally Irish, going back all the way to Brian Boru, and further. And even before that, they would only have been locally diluted, by Danes, or Brits. Brazil has a much more mixed and varied ethnicity, with Irish being part of that since the mid 1700s when Rebel Irish were Transported to the West Indies by Britain. Add to that Portuguese, rebellious plantation slaves, and indigenous mixing too. A good splash of newer Irish blood would make little or no diference to how Brazilian he would have been considered, had he lived there.

ETA; Certain parts of the above post are pretty tenuous, badly worded,  and actually absurd. Partly due to poorly reasoned out and hastily put together thoughts, and partly due to Gin. But it does validate the OP, on one point, that racism is an uncomfortable subject. At least, it is from where I am currently sitting. My next post is a lot less wordy and far better illustrates what I was trying to say.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

True. I guess thats part of my discomfort describing myself as white. I might have more in common with a hypothetical black bostonian with an irish immigrant parent than my midwestern friends. But that goes back to a previous post. I think of phil lynnott as an irishman rather than a black dude with a white mother. Its a separate topic than race but still ties in to a degree.

Obviously you think of him as both an Irishman and a black dude with a white mother, or you couldn't have chosen him as an example.

And I am going to challenge you on all of your justifications on being uncomfortable describing yourself as "white", because so far they're all variations on "I don't see race".

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

This may be an interewsting exercise right here bb.

Why do you consider him brazilian and why do i consider him irish? And ill try to keep my own irishness out of the equation as i consider this further.

I think probably because he was black. And it was the mixed negro/hispanic/native black of Brazil, not West Indian Black.
Growing up as he did, in a one parent family in Ireland, I doubt if he comfortably identified as "Irish" due to his colour. And if he had grown up in Brazil, the fact he was half Irish wouldn't have factored in whether he was Brazilian. Irish bloodlines (In Ireland) are generally Irish, going back all the way to Brian Boru, and further. And even before that, they would only have been locally diluted, by Danes, or Brits. Brazil has a much more mixed and varied ethnicity, with Irish being part of that since the mid 1700s when Rebel Irish were Transported to the West Indies by Britain. Add to that Portuguese, rebellious plantation slaves, and indigenous mixing too. A good splash of newer Irish blood would make little or no diference to how Brazilian he would have been considered, had he lived there.

He was an Irish citizen with an Irish mother... why would he not consider himself Irish? I had to go look up his bio, to see if there were some clues I didn't know about such as having been born in Brazil.

Apparently his dad was from Guyana, which particularly means that he would have had no reason to consider himself Brazilian, but really, honestly, how can you assume that a person wouldn't identify with the home in which they were raised with natural-born relatives, because they have different skin? That's absurd. I don't even know how to go about criticizing it... I'm simply taken aback.

I mean, almost certainly he was aware of being different, but probably wouldn't have been thinking about it all the time. It certainly isn't likely that he thought of himself as Guyanan, as his father wasn't around and he was never exposed to Guyanan culture. Babies don't know they're black; they bond with their caregivers. Children identify with their families. For him to not identify as Irish would mean that he didn't identify with the only family he knew as well as the country he grew up in, and that's just silly. And I am kind of gobsmacked by the "If he had grown up in Brazil, his race wouldn't have been a factor in how Brazilian he was considered".

If I grew up in The Land of Oz, I would have my own troupe of flying monkeys.

If trees had balls, flowers would ejaculate.

[BadBeast]

I only meant that his being black, and brought up in Ireland, would have been more of a racial issue, than being half Irish would, had he been brought up in Brazil Guyana. Largely because colour is more of a racial identifier than actual culture is. 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I only meant that his being black, and brought up in Ireland, would have been more of a racial issue, than being half Irish would, had he been brought up in Brazil Guyana. Largely because colour is more of a racial identifier than actual culture is.

OK... that's not at all what you said, though, so you might want to review it and maybe even clarify yourself, because what you actually said was absurd.

And yes, color is, for most purposes, the identifier, and culture is not a racial identifier at all.

But all that has absolutely nothing to do with whether he thought of himself as Irish.

I doubt if he comfortably identified as "Irish" due to his colour.

[BadBeast]

Yeah, that last quote is a bit dickish, and not at all based on the sound and lucid reasoning I am usually so renowned for. But fuck it, I'm just a man, and prone to the occasional bout of dickishness, and while that doesn't excuse plain stupidity, it does make for an interesting excercise in why it's a bad idea to post on sensitive subjects whilst drunk. 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Yeah, that last quote is a bit dickish, and not at all based on the sound and lucid reasoning I am usually so renowned for. But fuck it, I'm just a man, and prone to the occasional bout of dickishness, and while that doesn't excuse plain stupidity, it does make for an interesting excercise in why it's a bad idea to post on sensitive subjects whilst drunk. 

Eh, no foul, and bonus points for standing down.

[Cain]

Culture has a whole different relevancy, but people very often conflate culture and race... such as my ex who used to tell me that I am "culturally white".

I'm starting to wonder if "culturism" isn't hot shiny new thing in racism.  There's a professor at my old college who teaches history through the lens of culture.  As in, "Muslim culture has never produced anything of scientific value, because their religion forbids them from studying the natural laws of the universe.  All the great inventions came from the free West, because they valued a spirit of inquiry."  He even has a book where he meticulously explains how the "more democratic/free" (i.e., Western) society always wins wars.  Except when they don't, which is because they weren't being faithful to their core values of Westerness.

It lets you make statements like "Of course black people are our intellectual and spiritual peers - race is entirely superficial.  The reason they're doing so poorly is because their inferior culture - the black community is doing poorly academically and professionally because they don't have the WASP's intellectual curiosity or work ethic" and be not racist, because you're completely okay with black people who "escape" their culture and act like civilized human beings white people.

It has the added benefit that you can call anyone who disagrees with you a relativist, who as we all know lack morals.

There is definitely something to that idea.  In fact, I believe the value of this as a long-term strategy was discussed by several Novelle Droit groups in Europe in the 1970s and 80s, who wanted to deploy Gramscian theories of hegemony and cultural domination against leftists who used it to make racism a terrible social faux pas.

In my long time spent arguing with Neo-Nazi twits, I say this deployed often.  Most were actually sincere in using it, but since you could draw out ideas (like "Muslims don't do science" and "are crazy religions zealots who don't believe in the secular state") and then draw parallels to distinctly Western groups, it could be quite fun, as was pointing out that Al-Qaeda is essentially a variant of Leninism, and indeed Islamism as a political movement was drawn from Western, counter-enlightenment philosophies.

I mean, has anyone told the Nazis, the Soviet Union (Lysenkoism lol) or indeed the US Congress that they are meant to respect science?

The idea of culture used in such a way is meant to privilege certain specific narratives concerning Western society, almost all of which are a) flattering to Westerners and b) can be used as a stick to beat other cultures with, no matter how inaccurately.  It's advocates might as well say Western Culture (whatever that is) is Doubleplus Good and all other societies (who are of course also monolithic) are guilty of thinkcrime.

[Roly Poly Oly-Garch]

He was an Irish citizen with an Irish mother... why would he not consider himself Irish?

Apparently his dad was from Guyana, which particularly means that he would have had no reason to consider himself Brazilian, but really, honestly, how can you assume that a person wouldn't identify with the home in which they were raised with natural-born relatives, because they have different skin? That's absurd. I don't even know how to go about criticizing it... I'm simply taken aback.

I mean, almost certainly he was aware of being different, but probably wouldn't have been thinking about it all the time. It certainly isn't likely that he thought of himself as Guyanan, as his father wasn't around and he was never exposed to Guyanan culture. Babies don't know they're black; they bond with their caregivers. Children identify with their families. For him to not identify as Irish would mean that he didn't identify with the only family he knew as well as the country he grew up in, and that's just silly. And I am kind of gobsmacked by the "If he had grown up in Brazil, his race wouldn't have been a factor in how Brazilian he was considered".

I think you're oversimplifying some things here. Children identify with their family, not necessarily as their family. If baby Smith is adopted by the Jones family, and the Jones family makes it a point to accentuate baby's "Smithness" in it's exclusivity from "Jonesness", baby Smith will identify with the Jones family, as a Smith.

To guess that this is more likely to occur in a racially homogenous culture/nation than in a nation where "mixed" is the norm, is not much of a leap at all. Further, I'd be hard pressed to ascribe anything I have observed about national and racial identity in the America's and try to apply it to European situations. Very apples and oranges, that. There is nothing near "Irish" on this side of the pond.  It's so foreign to me, in fact, that I really can't even get my head around it.