Uncomfortable topics: Let's talk about race

[BadBeast]

Outside of Ireland itself, it's a Cult. A bit like Goths, but with more Whiskey.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Thats a fair point nigel. I think either way i try to identify people by geographic ties or cultural ties. I am going through a bit of self assessment here and its kinda hard to figure out my own thoughts on it. Its a complicated subject.

[BadBeast]

Jumping in here, I'd say that identifying someone through first, geographical and then cultural ties is the perfectly normal and logical way to do so. These are the only identifiers open to you until you've interacted with them. Only then you are qualified to identify them on an ongoing inter-personal basis. This is how we revise our opinions, and either re-inforce, or challenge our preconceptions. Or something.

[Triple Zero]

Also, regardless of what Roger says, Irish is not a race!

Correct.  It is a genus.

Belgium, however, is a Kingdom. Like Fungi.

[PeregrineBF]

My father is Irish/Italian. My mother is Eastern-European Jewish (mostly Polish, some Russian, Lithuanian, Romanian, etc, etc.) with some known Mongolian-only traits in the gene pool on that side of the family, though no direct known ancestor. My skin is pinkish-beige in most areas, save for the occasional little brown spot. My hair is light brown. I'd say "American mutt" is pretty accurate for me physically.

Culturally I primarily identify as Irish. Boxtys are great. Whiskey is great. I play bagpipes.

As for racist jokes, well, I'm a honky chink kike mick wop russkie yankee pollack! I've always found it interesting that the racist term for a pollack is "pollack".

[The Good Reverend Roger]

As for racist jokes, well, I'm a honky chink kike mick wop russkie yankee pollack! I've always found it interesting that the racist term for a pollack is "pollack".

What's so weird about that?  The racist term for the Welsh is "Welsh", or even to acknowledge their existence at all.

[BadBeast]

My father is Irish/Italian. My mother is Eastern-European Jewish (mostly Polish, some Russian, Lithuanian, Romanian, etc, etc.) with some known Mongolian-only traits in the gene pool on that side of the family, though no direct known ancestor. My skin is pinkish-beige in most areas, save for the occasional little brown spot. My hair is light brown. I'd say "American mutt" is pretty accurate for me physically.

Culturally I primarily identify as Irish. Boxtys are great. Whiskey is great. I play bagpipes.

As for racist jokes, well, I'm a honky chink kike mick wop russkie yankee pollack! I've always found it interesting that the racist term for a pollack is "pollack".

I think you must mean "Polack". A Pollack is an fish of the Cod family, who's name, amusingly rhymes with "Bollock". 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Jumping in here, I'd say that identifying someone through first, geographical and then cultural ties is the perfectly normal and logical way to do so. These are the only identifiers open to you until you've interacted with them. Only then you are qualified to identify them on an ongoing inter-personal basis. This is how we revise our opinions, and either re-inforce, or challenge our preconceptions. Or something.

Yes. When I first met my friend Dave, The things I noticed first about him were:

1. He's black
2. He's tall
3. He has short hair
4. He has dimples

So, before he was my friend Dave, my mental placemarker was "the tall black guy with short hair and dimples who works at the bookstore". That would be enough information for anyone seeking him out to help them find him.

But once he was my friend, that mental placemarker was replaced with "Dave" and a mental impression of his personality. His appearance became less relevant.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Thats a fair point nigel. I think either way i try to identify people by geographic ties or cultural ties. I am going through a bit of self assessment here and its kinda hard to figure out my own thoughts on it. Its a complicated subject.

It is a complicated subject... racial and cultural identity are quite complicated in a country mostly populated with immigrants and their descendants. As a mixed-race person, I actually understand very much a rationale behind the argument that people should mate with their own kind. I don't agree with it (which is good because the odds of me finding a Native/Black/Orcadian who isn't my brother are slim) but I understand it.

[navkat]

Jumping in here, I'd say that identifying someone through first, geographical and then cultural ties is the perfectly normal and logical way to do so. These are the only identifiers open to you until you've interacted with them. Only then you are qualified to identify them on an ongoing inter-personal basis. This is how we revise our opinions, and either re-inforce, or challenge our preconceptions. Or something.

Yes. When I first met my friend Dave, The things I noticed first about him were:

1. He's black
2. He's tall
3. He has short hair
4. He has dimples

So, before he was my friend Dave, my mental placemarker was "the tall black guy with short hair and dimples who works at the bookstore". That would be enough information for anyone seeking him out to help them find him.

But once he was my friend, that mental placemarker was replaced with "Dave" and a mental impression of his personality. His appearance became less relevant.

Exactamundo.

[BadBeast]

People are often afraid of the term "racism" itself, because of the  negative connotations that apply to anyone found to be "racist".

This can lead to a lack of thoroughness in any process of self examination. But if we define racism as treating others differently on the basis of their race, religion, or other cultural peculiarity, then the rationale is easier to sublimate.

My country virtually invented racism, and it's roots run right through our National psyche. I recognise them in myself, the people around me, and in just about every institution that claims to be "English".
The current climate of "Political Correctness" tends to produce a knee-jerk denial of any such thing, but it's true. We do treat people differently because of their race.

But the way this manifests itself doesn't have to fit this cultural definition of racism. For instance, say you live in a small, middle England Market town. Pop. about 7000, almost completely white and British. And your new neighbours, are a family of middle class, Pakistani Moslem immigrants.

Where you might casually invite a white, British family around at the weekend, for a Porkchop barbecue and a few beers as a neighbourly gesture, this would probably be horribly insulting to even the most conservative Moslems.
So if you wanted to make any neighbourly gesture like that, you'd have to re-asses your approach, (and menu) taking into account the fact that they're culturally 'different' to perhaps everyone else you know.

No bother really. The whole point, (race issues to one side) should be to re-assure the new neighbours that they haven't inadvertently landed among a community of monsters. But because they are Pakistani, a whole bunch of race and religion questions present themselves, that apparently need to be considered. After all, you wouldn't like anyone getting the wrong idea. So the easiest thing to do, is nothing. And it's so easy, that that's what you keep on doing. But his is the wrong motorcycle.

Instead of baulking at the first ugly fence of 'race', just treat them first and foremost as people. If you inadvertently offend them, I'm sure they'll get over it. They will probably let you know if that happens anyway. Then you can apologise, or explain any mistake you might have made. Just like you would if they were white, and British.   

Obviously, this is the correct motorcycle. Personally, I have at some point, offended every neighbour I have ever had. Maybe 45% of the time, irrevocably. And maybe 5% of the time, leading to actual physical violence. This has never been about race. Or religion. Or colour. But generally about me being an arsehole. Sometimes about my neighbour being an arsehole. Occasionally, both of us being arseholes.

But nobody, whatever race, religion, or sexual persuasion they might be, has any right at all to not be offended. Especially if they move next door to me. In fact, alongside their opportunity to live next door, comes the fact that in all probability, I shall offend them. But it will not be because I've dumped a pig's head on their lawn, or shouted racial abuse out the window  at their noisy kids. Simply because that would be wrong.

Similarly, I shan't assume any offence or insult levelled at myself from them to be racially motivated. (unless of course, it is) That would also be wrong.

The OP is right, this is an uncomfortable topic. I would always be aware that my neighbours were different. On account of them being different. But all that aside, I would never ever use that as an excuse to act intolerantly toward them.
Because
A/ I'm not by nature, an intolerant person.
B/ It would shame me.

But I feel that I have no need to berate myself for treating people culturally different from me, in a way that takes into account the fact that they are culturally different to me.

I wouldn't flirt with a Muslim girl, not because I didn't find her attractive, (She's a girl, isn't she?) but because the chances are, she would not appreciate it at all. She may even find it threatening or intimidating.

A white British girl might not appreciate it either, but she has a hundred different subtle (and not so subtle) ways to tell me to fuck off at her disposal. No harm done.

But she never has any reason to feel threatened or intimidated, not by me. That's not flirting. That's something else.

But if the same rules apply, there's also a fair chance that a Muslim girl might get right into it, play the game. Enjoy a bit of a flirt. But that's not a risk I'm prepared to take.

Is that racist? Truthfully? (That's not a rhetorical question either, I'd like to know if other people would consider that as racist) 
I'd have to say that yes, it probably is. But it doesn't feel wrong. Not at all.

Bit of a bombsite, racism innit?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I think that's more of a cultural thing, BB.  If she was a non-Moslem Indian girl, for example, you'd be all over that.

[BadBeast]

I think that's more of a cultural thing, BB.  If she was a non-Moslem Indian girl, for example, you'd be all over that.

It truly didn't even hit me until I read your reply, but you're spot on.  My current GF is half Portuguese/Indian! 

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I consider culture to be more relevant than race and perhaps thats why i also take geography into consideration. A muslim can be arab black asian or white. But the most important thing to consider is that they are muslim and then where were they brought up because that will nuance their islam.

For example i have midwestern friends. Theyre american and white so on surface i should have some commonality with them. But culturally and religously i dont. Even ignoring the irish influence i was raised catholic. Theyre lutheran ministers who accept my aberrant pagan ways. I went to visit them after they moved back (they went to boston university and northeastern for grad school) and we went out to a restaurant and they mentioned saying grace. I laughed it off like they were kidding and kept on talking until i saw they joined hands and started praying. Ed and laura had never done this when we broke bread in boston. But suddenly i faux pas'd. New englanders rarely say grace even if religious. 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Culture has a whole different relevancy, but people very often conflate culture and race... such as my ex who used to tell me that I am "culturally white".