Uncomfortable topics: Let's talk about race

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Another form of racism:  White people instinctively feel that Black people are cooler than they are.  There may be something to this, speaking objectively, because when you put the screws to people, when you CLAMP DOWN on them, weirdness - which is almost always cool in some way or another - oozes out the sides.

That's how we got R&B, Blues, Rock N Roll, dance (Soul Train could never have been masterminded by a straight White male.  It was too fucking FABULOUS.), nerdcore, really good comedy, Liberace, Hank Sr, Gloria Gaynor, and Johnny Cash.

Sometimes, the people in question just snap in half, which is never a pretty sight.  But when they don't, you get amazing things.  Since most of the obvious squeezing in this country is exerted on minorities, particularly Black people, the perception - right or wrong - is that they're cooler.

I think this is a very valid observation, and also applicable for gays and other similarly marginalized groups... as you noted.

I was going to make this a full out rant, but it occurred to me the other night that the "clamping down" part of the process involves a hell of a lot of personal misery on the part of the group in question, and that all of this misery is personal and very, very real to the people it happens to.

And suddenly I didn't feel like a sociological genius, anymore.

It's still a valid observation... misery does generate some of the most interesting and compelling art and cultural artifacts.

I'm developing the opinion that it is the only really reliable source of said culture.

Everyone I know that produces great art, for example, is a big bundle of damaged wiring.  In fact, everyone I know that's interesting at all is a collection of PTSD and/or persecution, real or imagined.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I'd like to add that the statement reversed is not true.  Not everyone I know that has issues is interesting.

[Elder Iptuous]

if we run with the assumption that suffering is requisite for (at least some) great art:
on the individual level, this does not excuse a person from putting the clamps on anybody, obviously.
but in the aggregate, to what extent might the production of great art exonerate the cruelty of mankind? certainly not fully, but...
if we could 'just all get along' someday and also provide for everyone such that there was no real suffering, and our creative spigot started spewing nothing but crappy pop art, how would the loss compare to the gain?

[LMNO]

Another form of racism:  White people instinctively feel that Black people are cooler than they are.  There may be something to this, speaking objectively, because when you put the screws to people, when you CLAMP DOWN on them, weirdness - which is almost always cool in some way or another - oozes out the sides.

That's how we got R&B, Blues, Rock N Roll, dance (Soul Train could never have been masterminded by a straight White male.  It was too fucking FABULOUS.), nerdcore, really good comedy, Liberace, Hank Sr, Gloria Gaynor, and Johnny Cash.

Sometimes, the people in question just snap in half, which is never a pretty sight.  But when they don't, you get amazing things.  Since most of the obvious squeezing in this country is exerted on minorities, particularly Black people, the perception - right or wrong - is that they're cooler.

I think this is a very valid observation, and also applicable for gays and other similarly marginalized groups... as you noted.

I was going to make this a full out rant, but it occurred to me the other night that the "clamping down" part of the process involves a hell of a lot of personal misery on the part of the group in question, and that all of this misery is personal and very, very real to the people it happens to.

And suddenly I didn't feel like a sociological genius, anymore.

It's still a valid observation... misery does generate some of the most interesting and compelling art and cultural artifacts.

I'm developing the opinion that it is the only really reliable source of said culture.

Everyone I know that produces great art, for example, is a big bundle of damaged wiring.  In fact, everyone I know that's interesting at all is a collection of PTSD and/or persecution, real or imagined.

Which leads me to conclude:

1) I have some bad wiring I haven't uncovered yet.
2) I'm a nerurological McGuyver.
3) I ain't no artist.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Another form of racism:  White people instinctively feel that Black people are cooler than they are.  There may be something to this, speaking objectively, because when you put the screws to people, when you CLAMP DOWN on them, weirdness - which is almost always cool in some way or another - oozes out the sides.

That's how we got R&B, Blues, Rock N Roll, dance (Soul Train could never have been masterminded by a straight White male.  It was too fucking FABULOUS.), nerdcore, really good comedy, Liberace, Hank Sr, Gloria Gaynor, and Johnny Cash.

Sometimes, the people in question just snap in half, which is never a pretty sight.  But when they don't, you get amazing things.  Since most of the obvious squeezing in this country is exerted on minorities, particularly Black people, the perception - right or wrong - is that they're cooler.

I think this is a very valid observation, and also applicable for gays and other similarly marginalized groups... as you noted.

I was going to make this a full out rant, but it occurred to me the other night that the "clamping down" part of the process involves a hell of a lot of personal misery on the part of the group in question, and that all of this misery is personal and very, very real to the people it happens to.

And suddenly I didn't feel like a sociological genius, anymore.

It's still a valid observation... misery does generate some of the most interesting and compelling art and cultural artifacts.

I'm developing the opinion that it is the only really reliable source of said culture.

Everyone I know that produces great art, for example, is a big bundle of damaged wiring.  In fact, everyone I know that's interesting at all is a collection of PTSD and/or persecution, real or imagined.

Which leads me to conclude:

1) I have some bad wiring I haven't uncovered yet.
2) I'm a nerurological McGuyver.
3) I ain't no artist.

1 & 2.

You aren't normal, LMNO.  You're a Big Gay Cowboy.  Normal people shit themselves in church because of you and the few weirdos who are like you.  You're a reprehensible freak, and I admire that.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

if we run with the assumption that suffering is requisite for (at least some) great art:
on the individual level, this does not excuse a person from putting the clamps on anybody, obviously.
but in the aggregate, to what extent might the production of great art exonerate the cruelty of mankind? certainly not fully, but...
if we could 'just all get along' someday and also provide for everyone such that there was no real suffering, and our creative spigot started spewing nothing but crappy pop art, how would the loss compare to the gain?

Guernica didn't make up for all the people who died in the Spanish civil war, and I'm not saying it was a good trade, but the world would be poorer without it...Mostly because humans will NEVER remove suffering, because we are wired for punishment.  And if we HAVE to live like that, we may as well get Roy Orbison instead of Taylor Swift, right?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I don't think you necessarily have to be miserable to produce great art (and I know that's not what you were saying, I'm just musing, here) but I really haven't known any artists who weren't pretty damn squeezed by SOMETHING. Maybe even just themselves. Not necessarily unhappy, but definitely... something. And incredibly hard on themselves, too.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I don't think you necessarily have to be miserable to produce great art (and I know that's not what you were saying, I'm just musing, here) but I really haven't known any artists who weren't pretty damn squeezed by SOMETHING. Maybe even just themselves. Not necessarily unhappy, but definitely... something. And incredibly hard on themselves, too.

Misery isn't necessary, pressure is.

[LMNO]

Now that is something I can get behind.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I don't think you necessarily have to be miserable to produce great art (and I know that's not what you were saying, I'm just musing, here) but I really haven't known any artists who weren't pretty damn squeezed by SOMETHING. Maybe even just themselves. Not necessarily unhappy, but definitely... something. And incredibly hard on themselves, too.

Misery isn't necessary, pressure is.

BAM! I think you nailed it.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I don't think you necessarily have to be miserable to produce great art (and I know that's not what you were saying, I'm just musing, here) but I really haven't known any artists who weren't pretty damn squeezed by SOMETHING. Maybe even just themselves. Not necessarily unhappy, but definitely... something. And incredibly hard on themselves, too.

Misery isn't necessary, pressure is.

BAM! I think you nailed it.

When I moved to The Big City from that Godawful mining town, I figured I'd take 6 months off and write.

I couldn't produce a fucking thing.  No pressure, no stress, makes Roger a Lazy Boy.  Or, more to the point, Roger Has Nothing To Write About.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I think you have to have the right amount of pressure too. If you have too much pressure, things get just as stuck if you have no pressure. No pressure= trickle. Too much pressure= blockage.

The other thing too, is that everyone suffers at some point. I think the difference between artists and non-artists is the way they channel it. And let's all face it, a happy love song (which is all too common) is not as satisfying to listen to as a sad love song. Or an angry love song. If you're mellow and listening to mellow music, it's kinda like, "Ok, I'm relaxed and this is sonic wallpaper" All the good music makes you go either "fuck yeah!" or "fuck it!" or at least along the happy lines "let's fuck!"

Twid,
Just realized that "fuck" is central to good art and music.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Evidence:

Happy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsW8rXPcnM0

Sad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_2pGaPPOHI&ob=av2n

Angry (and sad [and fake live]): WARNING- 15 minutes long
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW-JIFK8nOs

^skip to 8 minute mark for gist.

and /off topic

[Wolfgang Absolutus]

Ethnically I'm at least 75% black, the other bit being cuban. I speak in such a manner that I get frequently called white. This was a major problem for me growing up. After elementary school everyone started dividing up into their little groups. I would hang out with people who were 'geeks' as well as old friends from elementary. As we grew up groups became more stratified. Race became a major part of the identities of many of my peers. I really didn't get it and I guess I still don't. Throughout high school and into my college years people would call me 'white' and an 'oreo'. When I questioned the justification for these claims no one had any substantial warrants. No one would admit what an openly racist and idiotic thing that was to say. One of the other black kids I hung around with when I was a freshman called me white once. I was at the top of the class and he was hovering around a C+. He said I was white because I talked like 'them' and acted like 'them'. It was obvious he was under the assumption that if one does not meet conventional stereotypes about black culture and black people, then that person cannot be called 'authentically black', whatever the hell that means. Many white persons I have known have said the same things. Of course I'm not black because I like progressive rock. I'm not black because I'm on the chess team. I'm not black because I try to use grammar all the time. The last time this happened I barely held my self back from choking this person while yelling at him about race relations. I have much more to say on this topic but I'll leave it at this: this kind of internalization of anti-intellectualism and negative racial stereotypes ,prevalent in black culture today especially, is destructive to us all.
______________________
When I treat people I always try to treat them according to their actions, rather than those things they have no control over. You can't help that you are a pale dullard( white person) and it would be unfair for me to yell at you for the crappiness of your DNA.
______________________
Racial profiling really sucks. Mostly because it leads us to internalize narratives about different races. A prominent example is the racial profiling of those with an ethnic background in the middle-east in America. I've heard people say,"Oh I'm not racist but, If its only one race of people doing that thing then its only fair to only harass them. Anyone who bothered to think would see the inherent stupidity of such an opinion but it is clear that if one really wanted to arbitrarily restrict the freedoms of certain people based on the color of their skin, the first group on the list would be White people.
______________________
Lastly is racial realism which really chaps my hide. People who say, "Oh I'm not being racist, Its just that some races are genetically better than others. We should be separated because of that". This type of statement is blantantly false, as anyone who has studied genetics will tell you, race is culture based, not based on genetics, but also ignorant of the way the world actually functions.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Ethnically I'm at least 75% black, the other bit being cuban. I speak in such a manner that I get frequently called white. This was a major problem for me growing up. After elementary school everyone started dividing up into their little groups. I would hang out with people who were 'geeks' as well as old friends from elementary. As we grew up groups became more stratified. Race became a major part of the identities of many of my peers. I really didn't get it and I guess I still don't. Throughout high school and into my college years people would call me 'white' and an 'oreo'. When I questioned the justification for these claims no one had any substantial warrants. No one would admit what an openly racist and idiotic thing that was to say. One of the other black kids I hung around with when I was a freshman called me white once. I was at the top of the class and he was hovering around a C+. He said I was white because I talked like 'them' and acted like 'them'. It was obvious he was under the assumption that if one does not meet conventional stereotypes about black culture and black people, then that person cannot be called 'authentically black', whatever the hell that means. Many white persons I have known have said the same things. Of course I'm not black because I like progressive rock. I'm not black because I'm on the chess team. I'm not black because I try to use grammar all the time. The last time this happened I barely held my self back from choking this person while yelling at him about race relations. I have much more to say on this topic but I'll leave it at this: this kind of internalization of anti-intellectualism and negative racial stereotypes ,prevalent in black culture today especially, is destructive to us all.
______________________
When I treat people I always try to treat them according to their actions, rather than those things they have no control over. You can't help that you are a pale dullard( white person) and it would be unfair for me to yell at you for the crappiness of your DNA.
______________________
Racial profiling really sucks. Mostly because it leads us to internalize narratives about different races. A prominent example is the racial profiling of those with an ethnic background in the middle-east in America. I've heard people say,"Oh I'm not racist but, If its only one race of people doing that thing then its only fair to only harass them. Anyone who bothered to think would see the inherent stupidity of such an opinion but it is clear that if one really wanted to arbitrarily restrict the freedoms of certain people based on the color of their skin, the first group on the list would be White people.
______________________
Lastly is racial realism which really chaps my hide. People who say, "Oh I'm not being racist, Its just that some races are genetically better than others. We should be separated because of that". This type of statement is blantantly false, as anyone who has studied genetics will tell you, race is culture based, not based on genetics, but also ignorant of the way the world actually functions.

A friend that I mentioned earlier in this thread ("You're the colored people because you change colors") and you would have some things in common. He despised the stereotype. He'd rail against it. And he was to a degree shunned for it, within his own community. He was the black kid in the ghetto who played D&D and listened to Heavy Metal and Doom Metal. My first Type O Negative concert was with him. Of course I was going to take him, he was my best friend at the time and he fucking loved Type O. When I got my license and was able to drive him home from work, he insisted on cranking the Metal up just to let everyone know that HE was home (we were also coworkers for a time-got him the job). And he'd get shit for it. "You're a white guy trapped in a black man's body." Because he liked what he liked. I remember him saying once, "Just because I'm black and I choose to speak proper English doesn't mean I'm any less black. It just means I just don't want to be fucking stupid."

In retrospect, he made a lot of references to being black, and I never really thought of it other than, ok, that's just Vinny emphasizing a point. (Once in Salem, "I'm a Witch AND a Negro! You don't see that every day!" -Vinny when we Bostonians were heckling tour guides for shits and giggles). But then again, after this thread... "I'm a Witch AND an Irishman! You see that..... frequently in these parts....."

I dunno, I'm still trying to sort this all out. I'm also trying to figure out if people I know well who aren't white I recognize as just people, or if I see them as non-white. And why should familiarity matter? So what if I don't see that Vinny's black? What about that guy on the bus? And now I'm observing it, and are my observations contaminated because I know what I'm doing?