Drug Policy Needs More Centrists (NYTimes OP-Ed)

[East Coast Hustle]

Valid point, but you gotta draw the line somewhere.

I draw it at "does going without this thing make me physically sick (like heroin or barbiturates) or induce a craving heavy enough to cause me to abandon my moral compass and any empathy I have for other humans (like coke or meth)?"

On the other hand, if going without just makes you cranky for awhile and forces you to use some self-restraint, well, life's rough and you should get a helmet.

[LMNO]

induce a craving heavy enough to cause me to abandon my moral compass and any empathy I have for other humans

I'm pretty sure gambling addictions have caused this to happen.

[AFK]

They definitely have.  In fact, some research has suggested the brain chemistry in an addicted gambler is very similar to the brain chemistry of a drug addict.  It seems to hit some of the same neurotransmitters and that gamblers chase the next big win the same way a drug addict will chase the next big high. 

[East Coast Hustle]

induce a craving heavy enough to cause me to abandon my moral compass and any empathy I have for other humans

I'm pretty sure gambling addictions have caused this to happen.

you'll notice that I didn't list gambling among the things I don't think cause a REAL addiction. There was a good reason for that.

[East Coast Hustle]

Though, thinking about it further, I think I would be inclined to put it in that category after all.

I mean, nobody ever had to go through sweaty vomit-laden detox to get those cards out of their hands.

Actually, I'd put cocaine in that category as well if it weren't for the fact that it's so morally objectionable for so many other reasons and the fact that everyone I know who actually enjoys doing it recreationally is a scumbag of the worst variety.

[AFK]

Actually, there are people who do require therapy to solve their problem gambling issues.  They do tend to be a very small percentage of the overall gambling population, roughly 9%, but in that population they really do need some kind of intervention to stop. 

[Triple Zero]

http://articles.herald-mail.com/2002-05-30/news/25120455_coke_vs_poppy_seeds_another_tough_choice_for_teens

[East Coast Hustle]

Actually, there are people who do require therapy to solve their problem gambling issues.  They do tend to be a very small percentage of the overall gambling population, roughly 9%, but in that population they really do need some kind of intervention to stop. 

Oh, I'm not arguing that the psychological addiction to gambling isn't a very real and strong thing. But it's still different from the actual physical dependency caused by heroin or phenobarbitol.

[East Coast Hustle]

Put another way, no matter how strong a psychological addiction is the person suffering under the addiction can, at any point in time, JUST STOP. That many people don't have the mental or emotional fortitude to do so says more about them than it does about whatever they're psychologically addicted to.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE, GO.

I know a lot of pot smokers who describe themselves as dependant on the drug. I agree with this, based on my observation of them with and without it. It's kind of surprising to me to read that, knowing a lot of stoners, anyone can not know any they would consider addicted.

Maybe New Zealand has better weed.

So when they don't have any pot, do they start sweating and shaking and vomiting?

Do the cravings ever get SO BAD that they resort to robbery or burglary to get their fix?

Or are they just irritable and cranky because their routine has been broken and they're weak-minded little bitches?

I'm hopelessly enslaved to caffiene.

And I do know a couple of people who HAVE to smoke weed...But I think that's just Pavlov stuff.  They're the same sort of people that would get addicted to TV.

Unlike weed, caffiene is physically addictive.

[Telarus]

The portion of the literature review that I quoted on animal models of abuse seems to make that pretty clear.

[AFK]

From my perspective it is an arbitrary distinction as there are documented and proven withdrawal symptoms in heavy marijuana users when they stop using marijuana.  Withdrawal symptoms that make it very challenging for folks to simply engage willpower to resist and has resulted in research to find medications to help with the addiction. 

[East Coast Hustle]

Horseshit.

What are these "documented and proven" symptoms?

And "being cranky" doesn't count.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Stepping back in to add something new I found.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/19/fashion/19pot.html?pagewanted=all

57 percent of those admitted for marijuana addiction treatment were ordered to do so by law enforcement. (The percentage of those ordered into treatment was lower for other drugs, except for methamphetamine. For alcohol abuse, 42 percent were ordered into treatment.)

Meaning that a large number do apparently check themselves in.

of the people who had used marijuana, only 9 percent became addicted, according to a 1999 study by the Institute of Medicine of the National Academies, a nonprofit research organization on science and health. Of those who drank alcohol, 15 percent became addicted. For cocaine, the figure was 17 percent, and heroin, 23 percent. (These are the latest figures from the institute; advocates and addiction experts said there were no more recent data available.)

9% is still a number even if it is pretty low.

Many people can smoke marijuana every day without ill effects, advocates say, just as many casually drink wine in the evening.

These marijuana users do not meet the clinical definition of addiction, which includes an inability to stop using the drug, an uncontrollable obsession with it and increased tolerance.

So I think (if the data in this article can be trusted) that I would have to change my position. Some, but not all, users of Marijuana (9% let's say) can become addicted. These people may need help to overcome the addiction. Like any addiction, this could be very bad for them and their family/life/etc.

However, this indicates that most, but not all, users (91% let's say) are not addicts and do not need counseling. These numbers seem far smaller than any other drug we have data on. They are on par with numbers associated with gambling, tv and other similar addictions (various internet references/news articles etc put the numbers between 6 and 12 percent on these kinds of addiction).

In researching this I found a comment referencing the "Bureau of Alcoholic Rehabilitation. Shattering Myths About Drinking. Tallahassee, Florida: Department of Health and Rehbilative Services, 1973, p. 11." (couldn't find an online copy).

"Alcohol no more causes alcoholism than sugar causes diabetes." The agency points out that if alcohol caused alcoholism then all drinkers would be alcoholics. 22 In fact, a belief common among members of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) is that people are born alcoholic and are not caused to be alcoholic by alcohol or anything in their experience. They argue that many people are born and die alcoholic without ever having had a sip of alcohol. Of course, a person can't be a drinking or practicing alcoholic without alcohol.

Is this true? I don't know. If it is, then it makes sense that marijuana aaddiction with a lower rate may also have a similar basis.

However, based on several articles I read... I was tentatively incorrect. Some people may get addicted to marijuana.

[East Coast Hustle]

Horseshit, though I'm not at all surprised to see you take the opportunity to stir this particular pot.