Drug Policy Needs More Centrists (NYTimes OP-Ed)

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

So in an odd twist, a friend just showed up here and we had a nice smoke while discussing this topic. The friend told me that they went through the same thing here in Turkey.

"If you ever get caught, just tell them that you're addicted. They'll make you go to counseling but won't send you to jail." The friend ended with "I went to every session stoned".

I wonder how much data on 'addiction' is based on that mentality?

[AFK]

But that is the criminal justice system you are talking about.  Not the treatment agency.  And I'm suspect about a judge simply taking a person's word that they are addicted without making them go through a rigorous assessment.  If they are, that would be a problem that needs to be fixed so treatment agencies aren't bunged up with people who don't want help. 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

But that is the criminal justice system you are talking about.  Not the treatment agency.  And I'm suspect about a judge simply taking a person's word that they are addicted without making them go through a rigorous assessment.  If they are, that would be a problem that needs to be fixed so treatment agencies aren't bunged up with people who don't want help.

Err, I think you're missing the point... still...


Ok, I'm stepping out because I value you as a friend and I really don't want to degenerate into the more SLACKFISTED sort of response.

Have fun getting to 50 pages everyone else 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

But that is the criminal justice system you are talking about.  Not the treatment agency.  And I'm suspect about a judge simply taking a person's word that they are addicted without making them go through a rigorous assessment.  If they are, that would be a problem that needs to be fixed so treatment agencies aren't bunged up with people who don't want help.

Err, I think you're missing the point... still...


Ok, I'm stepping out because I value you as a friend and I really don't want to degenerate into the more SLACKFISTED sort of response.

Have fun getting to 50 pages everyone else 

Just ten seconds ago you were cheering him on.

[AFK]

But that is the criminal justice system you are talking about.  Not the treatment agency.  And I'm suspect about a judge simply taking a person's word that they are addicted without making them go through a rigorous assessment.  If they are, that would be a problem that needs to be fixed so treatment agencies aren't bunged up with people who don't want help.

Err, I think you're missing the point... still...


Ok, I'm stepping out because I value you as a friend and I really don't want to degenerate into the more SLACKFISTED sort of response.

Have fun getting to 50 pages everyone else 

Hmm, okay, not sure what it is I'm missing.  I understand that there are those for whom treatment doesn't work, especially when they are dead set against it.  I guess I just don't get how that level of experience translates to the larger population.  I guess I just can't get on board with the idea that all of the people who go to treatment are making it all up.  Just statistically, that seems to be pretty improbable. 

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Treatments  not going to work if there is nothing to treat. Rats point is that these people arent addicts but for legal reasons have to pretend that they are. Its not a matter of them not wanting to help themselves not be addicted. Its a matter of them not needing treatment because theyre not addicted period. I thought that was pretty easily understandable.

[East Coast Hustle]

Fair enough.  It is true that kids may be required to undergo a full assessment for substance abuse as a term of returning to school.  But the thing is, if they don't meet the criteria, they won't go through the treatment process.  If they do, they will.  And if they go in as an unwilling participant, it is very likely, if not certain, that it won't work.

I think we're talking past each other here.

You're approaching it from the perspective that Person X needs help, but if they're not willing... it won't work. However, its possible that Person X doen't need help, but finds lying to a councilor much easier than spending time in Juvie or Jail. Further, the stories of 'addiction' (in at least some cases) are outright fabrications designed to get the user through the process and out so they can get back to their life.*

I feel like there's this huge flower vase sitting on the table between us and we simply can't communicate through it.

But the thing is, if they don't meet the criteria for treatment, they won't get it.  Because, of course, someone needs to pay for this treatment.  If the individual doesn't have insurance, the state will probably be picking up the bill.  And they are not going to pay for it if the state-mandated assessment says "Nope, no treatment necessary." 

Again, unless the counselor is a complete quack, which of course is possible, they are going to sniff out when they are being sold bullshit.  If they are like the counselors I know, they have waiting lists.  THey aren't going to waste their time with people who have no interest in the treatment when they have other people waiting just to get in who do.  It just wouldn't make any sense. 

But, I will stipulate that perhaps we have a different culture amongst treatment providers here in Maine.  It seems unlikely to me, but I won't rule it out. 

I wouldn't be so quick to discount that possibility, given the cultural differences between Maine and the rest of the country in nearly every other aspect of life.

That may sound like a pithy one-liner but I'm dead serious. Most of the country does not have the finely-honed bullshit detector that most Mainers are born with.

[AFK]

Treatments  not going to work if there is nothing to treat. Rats point is that these people arent addicts but for legal reasons have to pretend that they are. Its not a matter of them not wanting to help themselves not be addicted. Its a matter of them not needing treatment because theyre not addicted period. I thought that was pretty easily understandable.

I understand that but what I've been trying to get across is that those people will (mostly) be weeded out by an evidence-based assessment protocol.  There are mechanisms built into these tools to detect when someone isn't being forthcoming.  I used to administer one of these tools (JASAE) in a prior job and they would always kick out this measurement that showed how truthful the respondent was being in their answers.  And again, on top of that, a counselor who knows what they are doing will very easily be able to tell whether or not the person is being on the up and up. 

[East Coast Hustle]

But that is the criminal justice system you are talking about.  Not the treatment agency.  And I'm suspect about a judge simply taking a person's word that they are addicted without making them go through a rigorous assessment.  If they are, that would be a problem that needs to be fixed so treatment agencies aren't bunged up with people who don't want help.

Err, I think you're missing the point... still...


Ok, I'm stepping out because I value you as a friend and I really don't want to degenerate into the more SLACKFISTED sort of response.

Have fun getting to 50 pages everyone else 

Hmm, okay, not sure what it is I'm missing.  I understand that there are those for whom treatment doesn't work, especially when they are dead set against it.  I guess I just don't get how that level of experience translates to the larger population.  I guess I just can't get on board with the idea that all of the people who go to treatment are making it all up.  Just statistically, that seems to be pretty improbable. 

Not all of them, just the vast majority of the ones who end up having to go to treatment for pot.

you really can't lump it in with the other commonly abused recreational drugs.

[Triple Zero]

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/09/12/pope-claims-babyfood-laced-with-pot-prevents-addiction-later-in-life/

[The Good Reverend Roger]

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/09/12/pope-claims-babyfood-laced-with-pot-prevents-addiction-later-in-life/

Page not found.

Which bitterly disappoints me.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Trip thats fox news and the pope makes all sorts of ludicrous claims.

[Triple Zero]

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/09/12/pope-claims-babyfood-laced-with-pot-prevents-addiction-later-in-life/

Page not found.

Which bitterly disappoints me.

Just realized I forgot to link it somewhere.

On the other hand, this way that URL will appear in fox's logs somewhere with PD as referrer, so there's an upside, too

[The Good Reverend Roger]

My day.

Ruined.

[Pæs]

ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE, GO.

I know a lot of pot smokers who describe themselves as dependant on the drug. I agree with this, based on my observation of them with and without it. It's kind of surprising to me to read that, knowing a lot of stoners, anyone can not know any they would consider addicted.

Maybe New Zealand has better weed.