The Parlor Problem

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

No.

I mean, feel free to view that in any way you wish.
But there is clearly a large difference between random street walkers and what those women are doing.
Did you read that blog I posted?

Because there are some pretty good, real life examples of that difference. For one thing, I think there's a huge difference between a hand-job of a dude who is inert and, you know, any other sex act.

So, you seem to be of the mind that anyone who engages in sex work is at the same level of a random street walker, that there is no difference anywhere along those lines?

I saw it as a veneer of faux concern for women who are expected to sell hand jobs and let these guys grope their tits.
Maybe they're esteemed slightly more than street hookers who sell blow jobs, but not quite as much as the girls dancing in the tittie flops. 
In any case, I wouldn't wish that job on anybody.

"Inert" doesn't change the fact that you have to jack people off for a living.
That would depress the fuck out of me. If I had to smile every time some fat fuck groped my tit when all I wanted to do was bash his head in with a chair, it would do something to me. I'd be ashamed to tell people what I did for a living. I'd beat myself up for being too stupid or lazy to get into something else. If I couldn't find a way out, I'd be strung out on heroin before three months had passed.

I don't see myself as unique in this.

[hooplala]

I don't know... maybe I'm narrow-sighted (in fact, probably) but it seems like more a factory job than anything to me.  Grab that thing, wank it, wipe down, done.  I think 90% of what people hate about the job is the stigma, more of that slut shaming from the other thread.

EDIT:  I guess I mean that I think it *should* be something like a factory job, not that it necessarily is.  I doubt it is for many people.

[Salty]

Well I wouldn't want to work on diesel engines, or as a nurse because of the blood and other fluids, or retail because I can't stand people's faces when I do. I certainly don't want to give out handjobs for a living, but it's not as though I haven't considered it. Easy money, repeat business, higher rates. Just not what I want.

A lot of people would not want to do any kind of massage for a living. Others could not stomach the idea of reading tarot cards. In fact, there are plenty of people who broadly view tarot readers and charlatans who take people's money telling them what they want to hear. Well, they thinks there's something wrong with that. Not me, they may be pink and all.

There is an element to touching people's whole bodies that makes hand-jobs seem very natural. But there is a lot more power, I think, in non-sexual massage. Non-sexual touch is very important.

But you make it seem like this kind of thing is beneath you, and thus people who do it are. I mean, you've got a lot of hostility to the idea as an idea, quite aside from your lack of desire to do such work.

[Phox]

I think you're projecting, Stelz.

For example, my acquaintance who did that had none of the negative feelings you're describing, and she only stopped doing it because she got caught.

Again, however, I will state that people in that situation are vastly in the minority, but I would hazard to guess that a licensed massage therapist who engages in sex acts is far less likely to be in that boat than someone who is in the sex industry in some other capacity.

Personally, I wouldn't do it, but it's not because I'd feel demeaned or ashamed. I wouldn't do it because I wouldn't want to put up with the people.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

I think we were talking about this in another thread. Your body as a commodity.

Hand jobs, blow jobs, buttsex, the works - MY BOON TO BESTOW. According to if I LIKE somebody that way. Not economics.

I don't know... maybe I'm narrow-sighted (in fact, probably) but it seems like more a factory job than anything to me.  Grab that thing, wank it, wipe down, done.  I think 90% of what people hate about the job is the stigma, more of that slut shaming from the other thread.

EDIT:  I guess I mean that I think it *should* be something like a factory job, not that it necessarily is.  I doubt it is for many people.

Send 'em down an assembly belt with a cover over them and just their dicks sticking up so the girls don't have to look at them. 

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Well I wouldn't want to work on diesel engines, or as a nurse because of the blood and other fluids, or retail because I can't stand people's faces when I do. I certainly don't want to give out handjobs for a living, but it's not as though I haven't considered it. Easy money, repeat business, higher rates. Just not what I want.

A lot of people would not want to do any kind of massage for a living. Others could not stomach the idea of reading tarot cards. In fact, there are plenty of people who broadly view tarot readers and charlatans who take people's money telling them what they want to hear. Well, they thinks there's something wrong with that. Not me, they may be pink and all.

There is an element to touching people's whole bodies that makes hand-jobs seem very natural. But there is a lot more power, I think, in non-sexual massage. Non-sexual touch is very important.

But you make it seem like this kind of thing is beneath you, and thus people who do it are. I mean, you've got a lot of hostility to the idea as an idea, quite aside from your lack of desire to do such work.

I'm not better than sex workers, but yeah, it's beneath me.
It's beneath EVERYBODY.

[Phox]

I think we were talking about this in another thread. Your body as a commodity.

Hand jobs, blow jobs, buttsex, the works - MY BOON TO BESTOW. According to if I LIKE somebody that way. Not economics.

Sure, but trading that for monetary gain is the choice of a person, and so long as they are making that choice with no duress, then that's still their choice. Stupidity is still allowed, even if it is distasteful.

Well I wouldn't want to work on diesel engines, or as a nurse because of the blood and other fluids, or retail because I can't stand people's faces when I do. I certainly don't want to give out handjobs for a living, but it's not as though I haven't considered it. Easy money, repeat business, higher rates. Just not what I want.

A lot of people would not want to do any kind of massage for a living. Others could not stomach the idea of reading tarot cards. In fact, there are plenty of people who broadly view tarot readers and charlatans who take people's money telling them what they want to hear. Well, they thinks there's something wrong with that. Not me, they may be pink and all.

There is an element to touching people's whole bodies that makes hand-jobs seem very natural. But there is a lot more power, I think, in non-sexual massage. Non-sexual touch is very important.

But you make it seem like this kind of thing is beneath you, and thus people who do it are. I mean, you've got a lot of hostility to the idea as an idea, quite aside from your lack of desire to do such work.

I'm not better than sex workers, but yeah, it's beneath me.
It's beneath EVERYBODY.

See previous statement.

[Salty]

Well I wouldn't want to work on diesel engines, or as a nurse because of the blood and other fluids, or retail because I can't stand people's faces when I do. I certainly don't want to give out handjobs for a living, but it's not as though I haven't considered it. Easy money, repeat business, higher rates. Just not what I want.

A lot of people would not want to do any kind of massage for a living. Others could not stomach the idea of reading tarot cards. In fact, there are plenty of people who broadly view tarot readers and charlatans who take people's money telling them what they want to hear. Well, they thinks there's something wrong with that. Not me, they may be pink and all.

There is an element to touching people's whole bodies that makes hand-jobs seem very natural. But there is a lot more power, I think, in non-sexual massage. Non-sexual touch is very important.

But you make it seem like this kind of thing is beneath you, and thus people who do it are. I mean, you've got a lot of hostility to the idea as an idea, quite aside from your lack of desire to do such work.

I'm not better than sex workers, but yeah, it's beneath me.
It's beneath EVERYBODY.

If it's a boon bestowed for money and they desire it, how is it beneath that person?
This is the judgement that doesn't sit well with me.
Who are you to say its beneath everyone? By what standard, other than YOUR PERSONAL views and desires, is this determined?

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

I think you're projecting, Stelz.

For example, my acquaintance who did that had none of the negative feelings you're describing, and she only stopped doing it because she got caught.

Again, however, I will state that people in that situation are vastly in the minority, but I would hazard to guess that a licensed massage therapist who engages in sex acts is far less likely to be in that boat than someone who is in the sex industry in some other capacity.

Personally, I wouldn't do it, but it's not because I'd feel demeaned or ashamed. I wouldn't do it because I wouldn't want to put up with the people.

That too.

And Alty has a point about retail, etc. The people are what make it suck. Same with a lot of other jobs. I suspect MOST people are better than their jobs, expecially in this shitty service economy. And fortunetelling is pretty fringe-element and has a shady rep.

Maybe we all have to sell out, to a point. Just not to the point of pulling a bunch of dicks.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Well I wouldn't want to work on diesel engines, or as a nurse because of the blood and other fluids, or retail because I can't stand people's faces when I do. I certainly don't want to give out handjobs for a living, but it's not as though I haven't considered it. Easy money, repeat business, higher rates. Just not what I want.

A lot of people would not want to do any kind of massage for a living. Others could not stomach the idea of reading tarot cards. In fact, there are plenty of people who broadly view tarot readers and charlatans who take people's money telling them what they want to hear. Well, they thinks there's something wrong with that. Not me, they may be pink and all.

There is an element to touching people's whole bodies that makes hand-jobs seem very natural. But there is a lot more power, I think, in non-sexual massage. Non-sexual touch is very important.

But you make it seem like this kind of thing is beneath you, and thus people who do it are. I mean, you've got a lot of hostility to the idea as an idea, quite aside from your lack of desire to do such work.

I'm not better than sex workers, but yeah, it's beneath me.
It's beneath EVERYBODY.

If it's a boon bestowed for money and they desire it, how is it beneath that person?
This is the judgement that doesn't sit well with me.
Who are you to say its beneath everyone? By what standard, other than YOUR PERSONAL views and desires, is this determined?

Because I've known various kinds of sex workers, and they were all FUCKED UP.

You can't do this shit and remain unscathed.

[Phox]

I think you're projecting, Stelz.

For example, my acquaintance who did that had none of the negative feelings you're describing, and she only stopped doing it because she got caught.

Again, however, I will state that people in that situation are vastly in the minority, but I would hazard to guess that a licensed massage therapist who engages in sex acts is far less likely to be in that boat than someone who is in the sex industry in some other capacity.

Personally, I wouldn't do it, but it's not because I'd feel demeaned or ashamed. I wouldn't do it because I wouldn't want to put up with the people.

That too.

And Alty has a point about retail, etc. The people are what make it suck. Same with a lot of other jobs. I suspect MOST people are better than their jobs, expecially in this shitty service economy. And fortunetelling is pretty fringe-element and has a shady rep.

Maybe we all have to sell out, to a point. Just not to the point of pulling a bunch of dicks.

Maybe, but on the other hand, we can only draw the line for ourselves. It's up to other people to draw their own lines, and to be perfectly honest, looking down on them because their lines are farther on is exactly the sort of thing we want to avoid, innit?

[Salty]

Whelp, I didn't think we were talking about sex work in the world that's outside right now, with the obviously horrible conditions they endure. I was under the impression we were talking about extremely passive sex work in a highly regulated setting, and the subtle differences environment places.

Since we are not talking about that, and are instead talking about OMG SEX WORK IS BAD AND FUCKS YOU UP, MKAY I am going to go away and read.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

I think you're projecting, Stelz.

For example, my acquaintance who did that had none of the negative feelings you're describing, and she only stopped doing it because she got caught.

Again, however, I will state that people in that situation are vastly in the minority, but I would hazard to guess that a licensed massage therapist who engages in sex acts is far less likely to be in that boat than someone who is in the sex industry in some other capacity.

Personally, I wouldn't do it, but it's not because I'd feel demeaned or ashamed. I wouldn't do it because I wouldn't want to put up with the people.

That too.

And Alty has a point about retail, etc. The people are what make it suck. Same with a lot of other jobs. I suspect MOST people are better than their jobs, expecially in this shitty service economy. And fortunetelling is pretty fringe-element and has a shady rep.

Maybe we all have to sell out, to a point. Just not to the point of pulling a bunch of dicks.

Maybe, but on the other hand, we can only draw the line for ourselves. It's up to other people to draw their own lines, and to be perfectly honest, looking down on them because their lines are farther on is exactly the sort of thing we want to avoid, innit?

No, Phox, you don't understand. I'm not looking down on them, any more than I would look down on somebody with combat-related PTSD. We're human. We get into these situations. I can see how somebody might decide to do a porn flick, for instance, because they'd get as much pay for a few hours as they would for over a month at McDonalds. I can see sex workers doing this shit to feed their kids, or just because it's been drilled into them all their lives that THEY DESERVE NICE THINGS, and there's no other way.

Maybe they "made a decision" but it's not their fault. And it still FUCKS THEM UP.

Whelp, I didn't think we were talking about sex work in the world that's outside right now, with the obviously horrible conditions they endure. I was under the impression we were talking about extremely passive sex work in a highly regulated setting, and the subtle differences environment places.

Since we are not talking about that, and are instead talking about OMG SEX WORK IS BAD AND FUCKS YOU UP, MKAY I am going to go away and read.

Sex work in a regulated setting is better, yes. But what fucks your head up isn't so much the horrible conditions of unregulated sex work as the WORK ITSELF, not having automony over YOURSELF.

But we did have this discussion already not so long ago http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,30875.0.html

[Phox]

I think you're projecting, Stelz.

For example, my acquaintance who did that had none of the negative feelings you're describing, and she only stopped doing it because she got caught.

Again, however, I will state that people in that situation are vastly in the minority, but I would hazard to guess that a licensed massage therapist who engages in sex acts is far less likely to be in that boat than someone who is in the sex industry in some other capacity.

Personally, I wouldn't do it, but it's not because I'd feel demeaned or ashamed. I wouldn't do it because I wouldn't want to put up with the people.

That too.

And Alty has a point about retail, etc. The people are what make it suck. Same with a lot of other jobs. I suspect MOST people are better than their jobs, expecially in this shitty service economy. And fortunetelling is pretty fringe-element and has a shady rep.

Maybe we all have to sell out, to a point. Just not to the point of pulling a bunch of dicks.

Maybe, but on the other hand, we can only draw the line for ourselves. It's up to other people to draw their own lines, and to be perfectly honest, looking down on them because their lines are farther on is exactly the sort of thing we want to avoid, innit?

No, Phox, you don't understand. I'm not looking down on them, any more than I would look down on somebody with combat-related PTSD. We're human. We get into these situations. I can see how somebody might decide to do a porn flick, for instance, because they'd get as much pay for a few hours as they would for over a month at McDonalds. I can see sex workers doing this shit to feed their kids, or just because it's been drilled into them all their lives that THEY DESERVE NICE THINGS, and there's no other way.

Maybe they "made a decision" but it's not their fault. And it still FUCKS THEM UP.

:shrug:
I'm not going to keep spitting against the wall on this one, either. My point is that this situation does not necessarily equal doing it or starving, or feeding your kids, or working at McDonald's for the rest of your life otherwise. It seems that you are saying that there is no point at which a person is capable of making a decision for themselves about selling sex, which is starting to sound a lot like people aren't actually responsible their choices (in this post I'm quoting). If that's what you're saying, then we simply aren't going to agree, and there's no discussion to be had here.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

OK, why would anybody making decent money doing massage, who hasn't gotten themselves into financial hot water, suddenly decide they want to include hand jobs for everybody if not for the extra money? How can there NOT be some kind of duress?