Excuse me while I vomit.- Trigger Warning for Rape and Rape Culture.

[Freeky]

Preempting boundaries, or trying to do so, is equally bad as being pushy.

What you don't seem to get is that you need yo be looking at this from the chuck's point of view. A MALE wants to get into your pants. Given that this is a man, and one you don't know, and he is trying to get into your pants, you are at threat alert yellow. This guy, and let me emphasize that even the word "man" can be threatening to some people, is addressing verbally things you look out for as danger signs, assuring you he wont do any of them. You have only his word to go on. You know that if you believe him and he's lying, the blame will be put on you for getting hurt. You are alarmed that he is trying to put you at ease solely for the reason of getting in your pants.

What would you think? Are you feeling more safe? Hell no.

[Juana]

Yeah, dude trying to address all my alerts is gonna set off, like, a million klaxon bells in my head. It's creepy and like you're trying to cut off all my escape routes. Which is upsetting and would make me anxious.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

Heh. TYhe conversation with Blackfoot is becoming increasingly circular, and he JUST DOESN'T SEEM TO GET IT YET. I have to remain hopeful that he does get it eventually, but I'm done trying to explain.

Ok, I'm going to attempt to shift the conversation.

Ladies of PeeDee, what kinds of things do you do to minimise the chances of being subject to sexual assault or street harassment?

Myself, - I don't have sex when I'm drunk. slightly tipsy, maybe, but drunk, never. Partially cause the sloshing round of booze in the belly with the motions of the oceans makes me nauseous, and drunk sex in my experience is not the best, but the main reason is obvious, and it's something I often bring up in conversation, because the nausea with each thrust part is funny, and entertaining. I've even gone home with a guy when drunk and on the way home stated "I'm far to pished for any kind of action, I can't even walk straight!", and totally withdrew consent before we'd even got through the door, after a drunken snog.

When a guy buys me a drink, I go to the bar with him.  I do not accept half finished beers from strange people, when I have no friends with me to keep an eye on my stuff when I go for a ciggie, I've been known to leave my drink behind the bar and collect it later.

I'm very conservative when it comes to necklines and hemlines, (which I know is utterly stupid), wear low heels if I wear heels at all, but again, I'm not much of a heeled shoe kinda gal and I cant walk in the really high ones for any extended period of time, but this always stemmed from a old thought pattern of "if I cant run away in a pair of shoes, I'm not wearing them".

I will often present myself fashion wise in a slightly goofy or eccentric fashion. It never works to discourage unwanted attention, mind, because of the curiosity/uniqueness factor.

I'll get a cab if I can't walk back with someone I trust after a night out.

I avoid low traffic areas at night if I'm walking alone and haven't got company.

I wear massive headphones during the day or in high traffic areas, to avoid street harassment, and am known to sing loudly when walking, because I enjoy it, and most people think you are crazy if you do so, and people give crazy a wide berth.

In a situation where I have a crush on someone, I prefer to make the first move.

[Pope Lecherous]

Preempting boundaries, or trying to do so, is equally bad as being pushy.

How do you know if your boundaries are being preempted?  In this case you say wait is this a problem? Then you find that, "no i have already established a sufficient level of trust for this to not be a problem" Otherwise, you find that no, we aren't cool like that and i am forced to back off.

What you don't seem to get is that you need yo be looking at this from the chuck's point of view. A MALE wants to get into your pants. Given that this is a man, and one you don't know, and he is trying to get into your pants, you are at threat alert yellow. This guy, and let me emphasize that even the word "man" can be threatening to some people, is addressing verbally things you look out for as danger signs, assuring you he wont do any of them. You have only his word to go on. You know that if you believe him and he's lying, the blame will be put on you for getting hurt. You are alarmed that he is trying to put you at ease solely for the reason of getting in your pants.

I don't understand the picture you have of my tactics.  I've been trying to clarify the strategy and the thought process behind it.  I'm not in the habit of making promises to anyone or verbally persuading women to trust me or like me.  If this is done/verbalized directly it is a complete turn off and reeks of desperation.  I instead, demonstrate my values/provide (true)data i hold and a woman uses that to make an informed decision.  If she's not diggin it or me, the end.

[Placid Dingo]

Give an example BF. nobody knows what your 'tactics' are because you're making general points but not explaining what they look like in real terms. We're filling in your gaps with our own assumptions because you're not giving examples.

[Pope Lecherous]

Give an example BF. nobody knows what your 'tactics' are because you're making general points but not explaining what they look like in real terms. We're filling in your gaps with our own assumptions because you're not giving examples.

I...

-have and show that i have many interests.  It's the easiest way to "be interesting."  Having many interests provides for many opportunities to connect with people.

-make an effort to bring a positive mood to the group or the interaction and i remain positive while not taking shit from dickheads and people that want to start conflicts or have something to prove.

-maintain my health and hygiene.  Sounds obvious, but some people don't get it.

-try to discover what people want, like and admire and why.  During this process values are revealed.  It helps to identify if you share similar values and provides in combination with number 1, almost endless conversation.

-observe the effect of everything that happens to and around the people i'm with, as much as humanly possible

-have a stance on a lot of issues.  It may put me in disagreement with people, but if you're tactful you end up being respected for your position.  Shit doesn't have to get this serious when you first meet someone but if a touchy subject comes up I'm not afraid to take a stance.

-have standards.  I stick to them.  These aren't only about appearance but also the kind of vibe a person has.  I understand cynicism, but there's a time and a place.

-live and have goals.  I have a life and hobbies.  No individual is the center of my universe.  I strive to improve myself to pursue my interests.

-appreciate what is subtle.  The small things, the inside jokes, a smile or wink, an understanding, sharing one mind if only for a moment

-keep it real. I'm honest about what i want and my expectations.

I can probably come up with other stuff but this is what's in the back of my mind when i approach a woman or group.  Get experience and the rest of it takes care of itself.

[Juana]

I NEVER go out to bars and such alone and prefer to go with at least one other female if I can help it.

I watch my drinks at all times and only accept them from a friend or a bar tender.
-- If I need to leave briefly and I don't have someone I trust to watch my drink, I'll dump it and buy another if necessary

I keep my receipts and stash them in pockets rather than a purse so that if something does happen, they have a starting place.

I park as close as possible to the place I'm going to.

The names and numbers of everyone I go out with regularly are written on a sheet of paper and kept on my desk (even though I sorely resent that I have to tell people where I'm going all the time and who with)

When selecting clothing for the evening, my thoughts run along the lines of: "what if something bad happens?" This is not solely "can I run in these jeans?" but also "will I be blamed if I wear that shirt?" (although not in so many words)

When going to my car from a bar, etc., I either call someone or pretend to, if it's too late at night. If there was someone who creeped me out that night, I will make a male friend walk me to my car in return for a ride back or to his car, if we're leaving at the same time.

I'm investing in a CS gas keychain when I have the money.

I check my car for stow-aways before sliding in (I was really excited that my phone came with a flashlight app), no matter where I am - my house, a friend's house, a bar, it doesn't matter.

Even when I had a beeper for the car, I chose to use the key to unlock my door because the beeper unlocked all the car doors.

I have mastered the art of locking the car door as I close it after me and, at this point, it's an ingrained habit.

For whatever reason, I rarely have to deal with street harassment (I can think of like, three instances in the last five years), but I go on as if I hadn't actually heard what was said to me on the blue moon someone cat calls me. I haven't had anyone confront me over being ignored or chase after me to make sure I heard the comment, and I don't know what I'll do if it happens (which, gentlemen, it does; I've just been lucky apparently).

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Either you honestly don't understand what we mean when we say "boundaries" and are too hung up on being "right" to recognize it, or you have some kind of psychological/personality disorder that prevents you from understanding the nature of other people's personal boundaries, because you CAN'T simultaneously challenge someone's boundaries AND respect their decision. Those two things are mutually exclusive. The act of challenging someone's boundaries is INHERENTLY DISRESPECTFUL.

Between you and Pixie, and now in the context of kyriarchy, i understand that regardless of whether bypassing someone's boundaries is right or wrong, the influence i want to exert (having them realize it's okay to let me past certain barriers) may/probably/can always be tainted by the dynamic of social expectations and roles thrust upon women as Pixie has already described.  I think this is progress.

Nigel, earlier i meant the idea was center to my point. Poor wording. my bad.

OK, I feel like that's progress.

I want to point out that a sexual interaction shouldn't really ever involve you "getting past barriers" other than the general, normal, layers of intimacy we pass through as we get to know people. You seem oddly convinced that women need to have their natural objections soothed and barriers coaxed down. It's bullshit. Sure, we want to make sure that a guy is trustworthy and safe and probably not AIDS-ridden or a methhead before we fuck him, but all of that PUA bullshit about "convincing"... it's bullshit. It's dehumanizing. We're out there, hoping we meet an attractive guy we can enjoy a sexual relationship with. You shouldn't have to address anyone objections, push anyone's boundaries, or in any other way talk around someone's NOT wanting to get laid.

You just need to get to know someone, without a bunch of contrived bullshit.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Either you honestly don't understand what we mean when we say "boundaries" and are too hung up on being "right" to recognize it, or you have some kind of psychological/personality disorder that prevents you from understanding the nature of other people's personal boundaries, because you CAN'T simultaneously challenge someone's boundaries AND respect their decision. Those two things are mutually exclusive. The act of challenging someone's boundaries is INHERENTLY DISRESPECTFUL.

Between you and Pixie, and now in the context of kyriarchy, i understand that regardless of whether bypassing someone's boundaries is right or wrong, the influence i want to exert (having them realize it's okay to let me past certain barriers) may/probably/can always be tainted by the dynamic of social expectations and roles thrust upon women as Pixie has already described.  I think this is progress.

Nigel, earlier i meant the idea was center to my point. Poor wording. my bad.

Blackfoot, the point everyone is trying to make is that boundaries are by definition the limits people have that they're not OK with you crossing/bypassing. That means that it's really not OK to cross somebodies boundaries.

YES people's boundaries will evolve as you get to know them. But that's something that happens organically. The first time you meet a girl, she might not be down with having sex with you. But if you go out again, she might change her mind. Thing is, this isn't pushing or bypassing boundaries, it's respecting her right to make choices, even if those choices suck for you to deal with.

THISSSSSSSSS

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

You don't have any idea what boundaries actually are. Personal boundaries are about what you are comfortable having done to yourself, not what you are comfortable with other people doing when it doesn't involve you personally. Those are totally different things.

You can replace that example with the difference in what the Asian culture views as personal space and what level of contact is acceptable and compare it to the American version.  A person moving from one culture to another can transition to adopt the ideas of the other culture and thus the same personal boundaries.

Thing is, we are specifically looking at western culture, and personal boundaries within that. If you want to discuss other regional social mores I'd suggest you start a new thread, because in this case, it's falling into massive derail territory.

Regardless of BF's 8 or so pages of refusing to understand why he's coming off as a creep, I think this thread has been hugely informative. Even for people like me who already view people as people and don't alter the respect accorded them based on what genitals they happen to have, there's always more to learn especially if you're on the privileged side of the gender divide. It's incredibly easy to overlook things because you're in a position of privilege even when you're aware that you're in that position.

Cool! The thing is about being someone who has privilege, is that oftentimes people without it know more about how it works to be that person than the people who have it do about those without.

I'm also glad that I'm no longer a one liner and emoticons poster these days. HEY IT ONLY TOOK 3 YEARS!

No doubt. I try very hard to be conscious of when I'm in a position of privilege, especially when it's going to alter the interpersonal dynamic between myself and someone else, but it's never going to be a thing that I'm FORCED to think about ALL THE TIME because I was lucky enough to be born as someone who, to appearances, utterly won the genetic lottery (white, male, American, not dirt-poor). It's a luxury for me to understand this sort of stuff (though I still think it's very important), not a necessity for survival.

Also THIS.

!

I think ECH has a somewhat unique handle on this perspective due to his background, as does Roger, but fuck yes.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Girl, I know exactly what you're talking about and it sounds like you're riding the right motorcycle with that guy.

Totally.

I know, because I have heard it from a lot of guys, that they don't think it's "fair" if you don't "give them a chance". What they don't even START to recognize is that even just that language implies that they have some kind of RIGHT to you, as if they MATTER in your life. It reminds me of the guy who, after one one-hour lunch date  that ended in a handshake, spazzed out and was all "I FEEL LIKE WHAT I WANT DOESN'T EVEN MATTER" when I declined a second date.

Yeah... that's because it doesn't. Any more than what *I* wanted mattered in my last breakup. If one person isn't interested, for any reason or no reason at all, that's it. The end. There is no "fair" when it comes to access to another person's body. It's not a matter for democracy, or juries. We aren't broadcast air time, required to give equal measure to opposing candidates. We can be as fickle and arbitrary as we want to be.

"YOU SHOULD HAVE SEX WITH ME BECAUSE I WANT YOU TO HAVE SEX WITH ME!" is like some kind of pathetic regression to age three. It's toddler behavior; the behavior of a person who doesn't yet understand that other people are separate, unique, distinct, with their own sets of desires and motivations. It's as sad as a tenth-grader wetting the bed, and calls for as much therapy.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The point it appears you're hung up on, BF, is that if a woman says no either nonverbally or verbally and you continue to pressure her in any way, including asking why, you're most likely making her feel harassed and threatened in a cultural environment that inhibits women from healthy assertion of their boundaries.

The problem I have with a great number of PUA "techniques" is that they seem to be targeted on women with the most psychological issues, rather than forming a mutual bond. Also, the elements of PUA that aren't offensive are usually just uncredited Communication 101 material and didn't originate in the minds of PUA culture, so the defining qualities of the whole school of thought are the coercive elements.

It's like adding rancid milk-sludge to potato leek soup.

I also have to admire how succinctly Nigel put this:

I think that it's worth stating, in the interest of maintaining fixed goalposts, that influencing the opinions and ideas of others can certainly be done ethically (we do it here all the time, after all), but challenging their personal boundaries cannot, particularly in a setting where a person with more power is trying to "influence" a person with less power. That's called "coercion" and in this context, coercion is a precursor to rape.

Part of the problem that I believe exacerbates this is the Fundamental Attribution Error.

Also, what Net said here.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The point it appears you're hung up on, BF, is that if a woman says no either nonverbally or verbally and you continue to pressure her in any way, including asking why, you're most likely making her feel harassed and threatened in a cultural environment that inhibits women from healthy assertion of their boundaries.

I think the point everyone is hung up on is that they think i press once boundaries have been established, asserted, or implied.  I don't.  I preempt them.  I eliminate it before it becomes a factor.  I establish rapport by demonstration of values.  This leads to what Placid Dingo says is an "evolution of barriers/boundaries" a person has in relation to a specific person.  Is it synthetic as opposed to organic because i do it intentionally?  No.  Because i invoke the quality of synthetic that is artificial... meaning false.  It's something that is a matter of pride as well as ideology, that i do not influence ANYONE under false pretenses or to harm them.

The problem I have with a great number of PUA "techniques" is that they seem to be targeted on women with the most psychological issues, rather than forming a mutual bond. Also, the elements of PUA that aren't offensive are usually just uncredited Communication 101 material and didn't originate in the minds of PUA culture, so the defining qualities of the whole school of thought are the coercive elements.

It's like adding rancid milk-sludge to potato leek soup.

Honestly, i don't want to discuss PUA or their techniques because we all universally see them as morally distasteful.  It's a dead horse, no offense to you of course, Net.

I also have to admire how succinctly Nigel put this:

I think that it's worth stating, in the interest of maintaining fixed goalposts, that influencing the opinions and ideas of others can certainly be done ethically (we do it here all the time, after all), but challenging their personal boundaries cannot, particularly in a setting where a person with more power is trying to "influence" a person with less power. That's called "coercion" and in this context, coercion is a precursor to rape.

Part of the problem that I believe exacerbates this is the Fundamental Attribution Error.

I also find this to be very powerful, especially in the context of Kyriarchy.  This is something that i will research and contemplate deeply.

So, are you saying that you've changed your mind with regards to your earlier stance on pushing people's boundaries? Because you seem to be saying that.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Give an example BF. nobody knows what your 'tactics' are because you're making general points but not explaining what they look like in real terms. We're filling in your gaps with our own assumptions because you're not giving examples.

I...

-have and show that i have many interests.  It's the easiest way to "be interesting."  Having many interests provides for many opportunities to connect with people.

-make an effort to bring a positive mood to the group or the interaction and i remain positive while not taking shit from dickheads and people that want to start conflicts or have something to prove.

-maintain my health and hygiene.  Sounds obvious, but some people don't get it.

-try to discover what people want, like and admire and why.  During this process values are revealed.  It helps to identify if you share similar values and provides in combination with number 1, almost endless conversation.

-observe the effect of everything that happens to and around the people i'm with, as much as humanly possible

-have a stance on a lot of issues.  It may put me in disagreement with people, but if you're tactful you end up being respected for your position.  Shit doesn't have to get this serious when you first meet someone but if a touchy subject comes up I'm not afraid to take a stance.

-have standards.  I stick to them.  These aren't only about appearance but also the kind of vibe a person has.  I understand cynicism, but there's a time and a place.

-live and have goals.  I have a life and hobbies.  No individual is the center of my universe.  I strive to improve myself to pursue my interests.

-appreciate what is subtle.  The small things, the inside jokes, a smile or wink, an understanding, sharing one mind if only for a moment

-keep it real. I'm honest about what i want and my expectations.

I can probably come up with other stuff but this is what's in the back of my mind when i approach a woman or group.  Get experience and the rest of it takes care of itself.

Man, I must have asked you six times by now and you've NEVER answered, but... what does any of this have to do with pushing someone else's boundaries?

[Pope Lecherous]

OK, I feel like that's progress.

This happened kind of a while back so i don't know if you've seen the following things before you responded or what.

I want to point out that a sexual interaction shouldn't really ever involve you "getting past barriers" other than the general, normal, layers of intimacy we pass through as we get to know people.

These are the very same barriers/boundaries i have been talking about all along.

You seem oddly convinced that women need to have their natural objections soothed and barriers coaxed down. It's bullshit. Sure, we want to make sure that a guy is trustworthy and safe and probably not AIDS-ridden or a methhead before we fuck him, but all of that PUA bullshit about "convincing"... it's bullshit. It's dehumanizing.

I am not employing PUA techniques and i understand why you think they are dehumanizing, i agree.  That's why i don't use them.  You keep firing shots at what you think i'm doing everytime PUA and their techniques are brought up, then time and energy is wasted when i have to explain that in i don't fit in the mold of what you have a problem with.

We're out there, hoping we meet an attractive guy we can enjoy a sexual relationship with. You shouldn't have to address anyone objections, push anyone's boundaries, or in any other way talk around someone's NOT wanting to get laid.

These questions ultimately DO have to be addressed at some point.  If you read something on wikipedia and have to conduct your own study to determine whether it's true or not, that's your prerogative.  I never suggested it wasn't.  If I present you with what you need to make an informed decision and you decide not in my favor, it's all good.  I prefer to frame it as being IN your favor anyways.

You just need to get to know someone, without a bunch of contrived bullshit.

You can see my reply to placid dingo about tactics the other page ago.  If you can believe that, then you may rid yourself of the belief that i use PUA techniques or canned material or lie to people about who i am and what i do.  We might even be able to forward.  I know that i have to re-examine my interactions with people in yet another dimension (kyriarchy).