Wage Slavery

[Dildo Argentino]

I just wanted to quote this bit of confirmation bias for posterity:

[elide Roger fanboiism]


But then I got to the part where one of these survivors starts going on about how

sex-workers non-profit organisations all over the place are infiltrated by pimps and madames who are out to get the real survivors, who know and want to tell the world that what they experienced is the only kind of sex-work there is. And my Reality Calibrator TM went to yellow alert. Let me reassert: the personal stories of terrible woe and sordid evil rang overwhelmingly true, but when it got to the generalisations, I became somehow suspicious.

http://survivorsconnect.wordpress.com/tag/bedford/

That survivor is particularly upset (among several others) about someone she calls an admitted pimp, Maggie McNeill.

This person also hates Maggie:

http://secretlifeofamanhattancallgirl.wordpress.com/2012/07/12/our-bonds-are-just-too-strong-for-you/

ANd here's awful Maggie herself: Articulate, reasoned, at ease.

https://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/2012/04/16/ad-scortum/#comment-22722

Articulate, reasoned, at ease. I found not a hint of paranoia, a level-headed person who is OK with herself. Someone personally important once told me: you are basically okay if you know what compromises you have made, and you are basically okay with them.

There are others on her side, too. I clicked around some more.

Then I remembered that a few years ago I spent a couple of hours lurking around a Hungarian site which is like a "product forum" for Johns (not linking, it's in Hungarian), where the "service providers" also posted frequently. They all seemed to be self-employed, without pimp or panderer. Among the punters, the utmost, somewhat stuffy and boring politesse was the norm, various entirely uncrude code-words were used for the various sex acts on offer and the whole board was almost victorian in its verbal prudery - while discussing sex all the time. The women put up photos about themselves, clothed and naked, about two thirds photoshopped their faces out, the rest did not. The Johns didn't put up photos, but had a functioning reputation network running and often wrote reports about their "visits" shortly afterwards: it seemed that peer approval of their little reviews was pretty important to them.

Now you may think that this is gross or perverse or kind of sinister or just plain sad (is what I think), but it is very different to the scene Roger described. Oh, and many of the women were in their thirties and forties, some in their fifties.

*******

I decided I had enough empirical evidence. Maybe not enough for you, but enough for me. I just started thinking again.

It is, I suppose, possible, that one or the other of these two groups, obviously pitted in a struggle which to my shamefully uncompassionate eyes seems to have the characteristics of a power-struggle, is lying. Or, in the case of the survivors, I would rather expect them to have gone through their own very terrible hells and come out scarred, seeing what they have been through everywhere they look. Some of them sometimes seem to agree that to some extent this is going on. But I think the most likely scenario is this:

There are actually many distinct ways of getting into sex work. If we arrange those along the dimension of "quality of worker experience" or "job satisfaction", I would not be surprised to find two sorts of typical stories (among many totally amazing different ones). They are at the two ends of the scale. The bottom end are people I shall call Sex-Work PrincessesTM in Roger's honour. The paradigmatic stories there are even worse than that OP: Sex-WOrk Princesses usually come from majorly disfunctional families, are often abused first by their own families, or they grew up institutionalised, without a family at all, and as they turn sexual (from the very onset of puberty) their abuse turns sexual. And then it is commercialised by evil, violent and dangerous people, with all the unpleasant consequences like Stockholm Syndrome and drug addiction... I am sure their survival statistics are pretty dire.

And at the other end of the scale there are the Happy HookersTM. These are women who had relatively less dangerous and unpredicable, but certainly not particularly loving childhood homes, but only started prostitution after their sexual awakening, either as self-employed people or in a well-regulated and clean part of the industry such as the one that was described above (which, to me, is also spooky as fuck, but I think there's not much in the way of worker exploitation going on). Also, despite their name, they are probably rarely happy about having the job they do, but they are sort of "under the circumstances" satisfied: compared to any other way they could make money, this sort of work comes out the best for them. I'm sure many of them make mistakes, overtake boundaries they later regret, and I would expect their prospects to be worse than the average. Though I wouldn't be surprised if at least a few were actually prudent enough to plan for their later years.

I would not want to hazard a guess as to the proportions of these main types. I expect they vary a great deal with locale: perhaps the city where Roger's experience is from is in general not the most liberal and human-rights-conscious neighbourhood in the world? But my sense of reality tells me that Happy HookersTM are unlikely to be unicornish outliers. And I don't know what to think of the terrible things that the other group suffered. How prevalent is it, really? Also, if this were true, it stands to reason that there would be very little contact between the two types of sex-work. On the one hand, totally exploitative trafficking, which is essentially the enslavement of children for financial gain, which is pretty awful, though the sex thing does make it a great deal awfuler. On the other hand, sex workers who provide a service to gentlemen (and women? I have no idea, really) or film-studios because, as with-it and competent adults, choose to do this.

It basically boils down to "I don't WAN'T the sex industry that I enjoy to be exploitative/bad, so I'll just buy into a convenient commercially-driven reality in which it's GOOD."

No, it doesn't (reading skillz??? Pot calling the kettle black.) It boils down to: "I am trying to buy into reality. While I think the sex-industry is terribly exploitative/bad, I don't think it is as homogeneous or as uniformly exploitative/bad as the Survivors, who have a particular experience (a terrible, terrible experience that nobody should have, but many people, and not only sex-workers do have, though freelance translators do not have) of one particular slice of the industry, make it look like. Now that particular slice is in all likelihood the largest slice, it is even very likely to be larger than all the other slices put together, but it still matters whether it is 99.9% or 60% or 80%. Also, that situation is likely to be the result of a number of factors. First and foremost among them is, again, in all likelihood the fact that sex provides a unique lever for exploitation. But I think even that is only partially motivated by the special place sex has within human biology, while it is also partially motivated by the special stigma/taboo/distorted thinking that surrounds sex in this particular culture. That distinction is uncertain because while the human biology aspect should probably be treated as a given, the cultural aspect is susceptible to change and conscious efforts can actually help make that change. Also, the special status of sex (in biology and in culture) is only part of the story: we live in a day and age that is showing a million other signs of severe crisis, and exploitation is increasing across the board - that is, again, largely cultural (though, as you are so fond of pointing out, it probably does have some primate origins) and hence available for sustained human effort to change in a couple-three lifetimes.

[Dildo Argentino]

Also, the weird side-justification that some of the prostitutes are older? What is that, exactly?

It's a reference to the OP. In that picture, people entering the porn industry are used up in a manner of years, die young (on average, much younger than other people) - but it seems that is not always the case?

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

 

Holist reminds me of those people who keep talking when you lay the phone down, you go do whatever for an hour or two and come back, and they're still on the line yammering.

[Dildo Argentino]

Hey, VERBL, thanks for responding without scorn.

Holist, this may should seem ridiculously obvious to the point that it nearly goes without saying, but when you have primary providers (former prostitutes) speaking out against an industry they were in, they not only have no financial gain from doing so, but also the high probability of financial handicap. When you have current facilitating managers (madams/pimps) in that same industry refuting those who are speaking against it, they have a vested financial interest in the industry. One group has not only power, but also financial interest, and the other group has no power and no financial interest. An impartial investigator, therefore, has to consider those variables.

On top of that, I think it's to be expected that a person who professionally exploits others to provide themselves with a comfortable life will have rationalized and justified their line of work to themselves to the point that in their head, it all totally makes sense and they are fine with themselves. The same applies even to people whose work involves regular brutal violence and murder.
On the other hand, their victims will be traumatized and tend to seem less stable.
It doesn't make much sense to judge people in that kind of situation primarily by their own view of themselves and their experience.

These are all entirely valid points. I agree. But, ultimately, what do we have to go on? What else can we do (given that representative, generalisable evidence is still not forthcoming, perhaps it doesn't even exist), but read the people describing their own lives (and those of others) and, keeping in mind that they may be cleverly crafted rationalisations and justifications aimed at achieving the necessary level of self-deception, judge them on their merits? Have you looked at that Maggie's blog? (https://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/)? Can you honestly say that this is the blog of a callous, cruel, exploitative madam who is out to get the Survivors because they are threatening her business? Really?

And one more thing, Holist:
I used to think basically what you stated – that there are miserably abused prostitutes and well-off, independent, empowered ones, and that the two are very separate from one another.
Then I read a post, a while back, from an Israeli ex-prostitute who described the kind of self-exploitation trap you keep mentioning. Basically, at first she was independent, empowered, and making ridiculous amounts of money as a classy call girl.

I am so sorry to have to say this, but that's one piece of anecdotal evidence, about one particular person who fell into the self-exploitation trap good and proper. If you changed your thinking solely on the power of that, your reasoning was fallacious. Or am I missing something here?

She got addicted to the easy money, and things started spiraling down from there. In the end, she was on all kinds of drugs, abused and demolished as a person.

Okay. But this happens to people in other lines of work, too. Again, I am not saying that prostitution is one of the very few lines of work in which this sort of thing is the most likely to happen (the violence-business you mentioned is likely to be the other one), because it is. But it is not exclusive to prostitution and hence it is not caused by the commercialisation of sex alone. Other factors (coercive, violent exploitation in general, and the sociocultural conditions that are conducive to it) must also have something to do with it.

And that's kinda what Roger's Porn Princess story is about, really: the two groups you describe are in many (most?) cases two different stages in the same process, not two separate worlds with little contact between them. The "Happy Hooker" is just a Sex-Work Princess in the making. The ones who aren't are quite possibly unicorns.

Quite possibly. But actually, we don't know. At least, nothing that could count as robust evidence for that has been offered so far. There is a great deal of confusing and contradictory information, and various interpretations of that mixed and inconsistent data-set.

And we've already discussed to death what makes it so difficult and unlikely for a Princess to cut her losses and quit while she's ahead, so I'm not gonna belabor that again.

Well yes, but the very fact that I personally know two people who have gone and done just that, coupled with the fact that I have never, I mean never ever have seen a unicorn, speaks against it.

Also, the stories that end up online are not going to be a representative sample, you know.

That's entirely true and also important to keep in mind in general. I fail to see its particular relevance, could you explain?

If you can't see how ridiculous/disgusting you're being, Holist, maybe you should, again, step back, and take time to think over what you wrote in that post in light of the replies. And by step back and think I don't mean between drug-addled work marathons. Wait till you have a free half hour and take some time to actually just think about it, without work, writing, or distraction. Having that kind of time is a privilege, but so is participating in online discussions, so you can evidently afford it.

Yes, it is a luxury I can afford. I have gone and done what you have suggested, and this is where it got me. I fully appreciate the points about my not being particularly lucid or clear, but I still don't think that what I have written makes me look ridiculous/disgusting. People with strong opinions about sex-work see me that way, because I disagree with their strongly held opinions. Which, as far as I can see, are not grounded in fact, but in emotional responses to truly gruesome stories, and personal anecdotal evidence.

I am very interested in your ideas about not only this, but the few other responses I have written, above. And, once more, thanks for the sensible voice.

[Dildo Argentino]

Holist reminds me of those people who keep talking when you lay the phone down, you go do whatever for an hour or two and come back, and they're still on the line yammering.

Well yes, quite. 

Except I am doing this while confident that your answering machine is actually on and recording everything... and in fact it is a public answering machine that anyone can listen to anytime they like... which makes it marginally less stupid. Or it doesn't, hell, I don't know anymore.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Waitwaitwait. Is part of your hostility  toward me based in you being offended because I referred to you as "that asshole guy" and variations thereof?

Dude, just to point out, I don't know about other people but the reason I was calling you "that asshole guy" because ASSHOLE WAS IN YOUR USERNAME. Your username was long and I couldn't remember exactly what it was so I just pulled a memorable piece out and used it for shorthand. Sort of like someone might call me "that monkey guy" if they couldn't remember my username off the top of their head.

If you don't like it when people to call you "Asshole", perhaps it would be wise to not make it your NAME.

Thanks, I'm still wondering about that too. I certainly wasn't calling him "asshole guy" just for disagreeing with me. And when he made a point (can't remember what it was now) I thought was accurate and valid, I quoted and agreed with him on it.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Holist, may I ask you a question?

Would you prefer that your daughter became a translator, or a prostitute? Can you explain your reasoning for your preference?

If I had to choose between those two, I would prefer her to become a translator. The reason for that preference is that prostitution has a far greater chance of damaging her and causing her problems in the long term, and it is also quite likely to cause certain types of damage that freelancing is very unlikely to cause.

But I would warn her, whichever profession she chose to dabble in, about the lure that "easy money" is, the dangers of self-exploitation and the long-term effects of alienated work - all of which are much less brutal and more subtle in translation than they are in prostitution, but are present and problematic, anyway. Which is why (given that her daddy is a freelance translator), I think she may well end up thinking this sort of thing (freelancing) may be a good idea, while I pretty confidently predict that at no point in her life will she think prostitution may be a good idea. So, despite the fact that prostitution is much more dangerous, the freelance angle (a pattern I am passing on right now - she already thinks that "working" is largely equivalent to sitting in front of a computer and being boring) is actually more of a worry for me.

OK. I'm not sure how that really diverges from my points on prostitution and sex work.

[Dildo Argentino]

Holist, may I ask you a question?

Would you prefer that your daughter became a translator, or a prostitute? Can you explain your reasoning for your preference?

If I had to choose between those two, I would prefer her to become a translator. The reason for that preference is that prostitution has a far greater chance of damaging her and causing her problems in the long term, and it is also quite likely to cause certain types of damage that freelancing is very unlikely to cause.

But I would warn her, whichever profession she chose to dabble in, about the lure that "easy money" is, the dangers of self-exploitation and the long-term effects of alienated work - all of which are much less brutal and more subtle in translation than they are in prostitution, but are present and problematic, anyway. Which is why (given that her daddy is a freelance translator), I think she may well end up thinking this sort of thing (freelancing) may be a good idea, while I pretty confidently predict that at no point in her life will she think prostitution may be a good idea. So, despite the fact that prostitution is much more dangerous, the freelance angle (a pattern I am passing on right now - she already thinks that "working" is largely equivalent to sitting in front of a computer and being boring) is actually more of a worry for me.

OK. I'm not sure how that really diverges from my points on prostitution and sex work.

I recommend my other recent posts in this thread.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Holist reminds me of those people who keep talking when you lay the phone down, you go do whatever for an hour or two and come back, and they're still on the line yammering.

Well yes, quite. 

Except I am doing this while confident that your answering machine is actually on and recording everything... and in fact it is a public answering machine that anyone can listen to anytime they like... which makes it marginally less stupid. Or it doesn't, hell, I don't know anymore.

Erm...the answering machine comes on when a person doesn't pick up the phone, and records for a short time.

You're crazy Aunt Dottie, or the guy who calls to read entire issues of pro wrestling magazines over the phone.

[Dildo Argentino]

Have you looked at that Maggie's blog?

'Cause she's really good.

http://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/2010/10/10/amazingly-stupid-statements/

In fact, in that article, she sounds positively Discordian.

[Dildo Argentino]

Holist reminds me of those people who keep talking when you lay the phone down, you go do whatever for an hour or two and come back, and they're still on the line yammering.

Well yes, quite. 

Except I am doing this while confident that your answering machine is actually on and recording everything... and in fact it is a public answering machine that anyone can listen to anytime they like... which makes it marginally less stupid. Or it doesn't, hell, I don't know anymore.

Erm...the answering machine comes on when a person doesn't pick up the phone, and records for a short time.

You're crazy Aunt Dottie, or the guy who calls to read entire issues of pro wrestling magazines over the phone.

!!WARNING, PARODY!!

Are you seriously suggesting that the PD board is anything like an answering machine? Can you substantiate that ridiculous assertion? Are you out of your mind? Do you realise how squicky that makes you sound? The PD board is a fucking great cornucopia of conversations going back a good many years, some of which are ephemeral but some of which are still going on and spawning new perspectives, new realisations, new FUN after several years! WHile a fucking answering machine is a fucking answering machine! Get a Grip! Support your ridiculous assertions! AND fuck off!

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Holist reminds me of those people who keep talking when you lay the phone down, you go do whatever for an hour or two and come back, and they're still on the line yammering.

Well yes, quite. 

Except I am doing this while confident that your answering machine is actually on and recording everything... and in fact it is a public answering machine that anyone can listen to anytime they like... which makes it marginally less stupid. Or it doesn't, hell, I don't know anymore.

Erm...the answering machine comes on when a person doesn't pick up the phone, and records for a short time.

You're crazy Aunt Dottie, or the guy who calls to read entire issues of pro wrestling magazines over the phone.

!!WARNING, PARODY!!

Are you seriously suggesting that the PD board is anything like an answering machine? Can you substantiate that ridiculous assertion? Are you out of your mind? Do you realise how squicky that makes you sound? The PD board is a fucking great cornucopia of conversations going back a good many years, some of which are ephemeral but some of which are still going on and spawning new perspectives, new realisations, new FUN after several years! WHile a fucking answering machine is a fucking answering machine! Get a Grip! Support your ridiculous assertions! AND fuck off!

I think I found some of the problem.

holist has reading comprehension FAIL.

holist noted on one of these threads that Nigel posts a lot. He thinks MAYBE IF HE POSTS A REAL LOT, HE CAN BE LIKE NIGEL AND ROGER AND THEM.

I think the holist quote above might have been an attempt to be a WILD AND CRAZY RILLY REAL DISCORDIAN. Pinkboyism.

Not ruling out brain syph, either, actually.

[Dildo Argentino]

I think I found some of the problem.

But actually, you haven't

holist has reading comprehension FAIL.

Nope.

holist noted on one of these threads that Nigel posts a lot. He thinks MAYBE IF HE POSTS A REAL LOT, HE CAN BE LIKE NIGEL AND ROGER AND THEM.

Not my ambition, I'm afraid. I'm quite happy being like me.

I think the holist quote above might have been an attempt to be a WILD AND CRAZY RILLY REAL DISCORDIAN. Pinkboyism.
[/quite]

Well no, it was more like a veiled attempt at demonstrating that some of your attempts at humour suck.

Not ruling out brain syph, either, actually.

I get tested regularly, as we do in this business, and nope. 

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

I think I found some of the problem.

But actually, you haven't

holist has reading comprehension FAIL.

Nope.

You got an answering machine out of a statement about moronic people who blather endlessly.
If it wasn't comprehension FAIL, it was the lamest attempt at a straw man ever.

holist noted on one of these threads that Nigel posts a lot. He thinks MAYBE IF HE POSTS A REAL LOT, HE CAN BE LIKE NIGEL AND ROGER AND THEM.

Not my ambition, I'm afraid. I'm quite happy being like me.

So instead of posting yet more TL;DR, you posted 8 times in succession. Pathetic. 

I think the holist quote above might have been an attempt to be a WILD AND CRAZY RILLY REAL DISCORDIAN. Pinkboyism.
[/quite]

Well no, it was more like a veiled attempt at demonstrating that some of your attempts at humour suck.

Quote FAIL.

And it wasn't a joke, BTW.

[Dildo Argentino]

Quote FAIL.

OOOOH I AM SO SORRYY!!!! "I" AND "O" ARE RIGHT NEXT TO EACH OTHER ON MY KEYBOARD, BUT I HAVE ALREADY CUT OFF THE OFFENDING FINGER AND I PROMISE TO DO BETTER AND TO SPEND SIX YEARS IN SELF-IMPOSED EXILE!