So What's A White Boy To Do?

[Elder Iptuous]

i don't buy that.
any meaning is not tied to their monopoly on some behavior that represents it.

[trippinprincezz13]

trying to codify acceptability in context of cultural affectation seems silly to me, and trying to enforce it (by social means) seems unlikely to accomplish anything.
people bent out of shape about it could perhaps better change the situation and be better adjusted by simply making fun of the appropriators rather than getting their war bonnets ruffled...

People generally don't respond well to having important parts of their culture absconded with and disrespectfully portrayed by others. Making fun of them is something I've observed, too, but frankly I understand why someone might get angry.

of course nobody likes to be disrespected.  some people might get violent (i.e. Mohammed cartoon response), some might get angry (crucifix in peejar response).  i can understand the latter, but it's really a personal problem unless they're causing material harm, no?

as far as having culture absconded with, i don't get that at all.  nobody is taking anything from you.  they're imitating.  if they're making an effort to do it well, that's flattery.  if they're not, then it's laughable.  so laugh.

This, especially the second paragraph.

A person with Shiva-shorts is a) exploiting Hindu culture commercially and b) putting their ass on one of the most important deities in the religion. It's stripping the meaning off Shiva because he kind of looks cool, which is kind of an asshole move, imo.

If anything it's a bit silly, but an asshole move, really? No-one seems to be getting their panties in a twist about all the Jesus Dildo's and Buddy Christ's or giant gold crosses the size of your face worn as a sign of "bling" rather than any religious connotations.

If someone is so wrapped up in a symbol that it ruins their life because someone's wearing it the wrong way well, I don't know. Have a hard time feeling sorry though.

[East Coast Hustle]

Except something is. It's not tangible, but it's taking meaning.

Does a person who actually worships and venerates Shiva stop doing so because someone else is wearing shorts with Shiva on them?

Also, that's a poor example since who the fuck gives a crap about respecting religions?

[trippinprincezz13]

Hell, we might as well all just be split back up into communities by heritage, race and religion so that we don't accidentally rub up against anyone else's culture or anything.

[LMNO]

A person with Shiva-shorts is a) exploiting Hindu culture commercially and b) putting their ass on one of the most important deities in the religion. It's stripping the meaning off Shiva because he kind of looks cool, which is kind of an asshole move, imo.

All this is really starting to rub up against my dislike of religion in general.  I don't want to be told that I must be respectful of anyone's superstitions.

[trippinprincezz13]

Or, from another angle: If we as a society stopped treating certain cultures and groups like absolute shit and treated them as full equals, would anyone give two ratfucks if white people wore war bonnets? So this is really just a distraction from the real issues, but since it's easy to make noise about and all you have to do to be on the right moral side of the issue is to NOT do things, it's a really easy way for well-to-do white people to feel better about themselves.

LOOK HERE, OLD CHAP! I'M NOT WEARING A WAR BONNET AND YOU SHOULDN'T BE EITHER!
\

I tend to think that if we weren't treating them like shit, like their culture was a novelty, no white person would probably think about wearing a war bonnet or putting Shiva on their shorts. Not treating people like shit requires respecting their culture.

Absolute horseshit. I can think of numerous cultures I don't have even a tiny shred of respect for, yet if I encounter someone who is a part of that culture I still treat them decently, like they're another human being. Not treating people like shit just requires not treating people like shit regardless of what you think about their culture or other ultimately superficial aspects of them.

This, I feel is really the heart of it.

[East Coast Hustle]

A person with Shiva-shorts is a) exploiting Hindu culture commercially and b) putting their ass on one of the most important deities in the religion. It's stripping the meaning off Shiva because he kind of looks cool, which is kind of an asshole move, imo.

All this is really starting to rub up against my dislike of religion in general.  I don't want to be told that I must be respectful of anyone's superstitions.

More broadly, I don't like being TOLD that I should be respectful of ANYTHING. I'll choose what I want to respect based on whether or not I think it's respectable, not based on whether or not it might hurt somebody's wittle fee-fees.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

A person with Shiva-shorts is a) exploiting Hindu culture commercially and b) putting their ass on one of the most important deities in the religion. It's stripping the meaning off Shiva because he kind of looks cool, which is kind of an asshole move, imo.

Okay, I want all Eris tee shirts recalled.  And no more Buddy Jesus.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Not treating people like shit requires respecting their culture.

Balls.  I like Twid, and I respect Twid, but I have precisely zero respect for Catholicism or the culture it engenders.

Likewise, LMNO has an extreme distaste for my personal religion and its effect on my culture, yet I do not believe that he is treating me like shit.

ECH, on the other hand, makes fun of me for being a recovering Canadian, is disrespectful as hell...To the point of mailing me Beothuk bones with mocking cartoons etched in them and dirty photoshops of Pierre Trudeau and a circus midget.  He is a bad person, and he does bad things, and it gives me the weeps.  Something should be done.

[Juana]

I mean, Nigel/Texas Fairies is welcome to correct and/or holler at me, but I don't really see how it's ("it" being Shiva-shorts) too much different than white people selling Native American drums and such (which, as Nigel has mentioned, is completely wrong, because taking money for sacred things strips the sacredness in many Native cultures).

Or, from another angle: If we as a society stopped treating certain cultures and groups like absolute shit and treated them as full equals, would anyone give two ratfucks if white people wore war bonnets? So this is really just a distraction from the real issues, but since it's easy to make noise about and all you have to do to be on the right moral side of the issue is to NOT do things, it's a really easy way for well-to-do white people to feel better about themselves.

LOOK HERE, OLD CHAP! I'M NOT WEARING A WAR BONNET AND YOU SHOULDN'T BE EITHER!
\

I tend to think that if we weren't treating them like shit, like their culture was a novelty, no white person would probably think about wearing a war bonnet or putting Shiva on their shorts. Not treating people like shit requires respecting their culture.

Absolute horseshit. I can think of numerous cultures I don't have even a tiny shred of respect for, yet if I encounter someone who is a part of that culture I still treat them decently, like they're another human being. Not treating people like shit just requires not treating people like shit regardless of what you think about their culture or other ultimately superficial aspects of them.

When I say "respect their culture", I don't mean "you can't detest it or parts of it", or even that a person can't actively help change it (AS LONG as the outsider helps people WITHIN the culture who want to change it*). I mean "understand that certain things are special/have meaning to them and try not to be an asshole about those things".


*ie, providing funding to in-culture groups who want to end FGM, helping to keep them safe if there's backlash, etc.

A person with Shiva-shorts is a) exploiting Hindu culture commercially and b) putting their ass on one of the most important deities in the religion. It's stripping the meaning off Shiva because he kind of looks cool, which is kind of an asshole move, imo.

All this is really starting to rub up against my dislike of religion in general.  I don't want to be told that I must be respectful of anyone's superstitions.

I feel pretty much the same way about religion, but I respect that people have attached meaning to that superstition, no matter ho stupid and useless I think it is, and I try not to do things that strip the meaning from it.

Except something is. It's not tangible, but it's taking meaning.

Does a person who actually worships and venerates Shiva stop doing so because someone else is wearing shorts with Shiva on them?

Also, that's a poor example since who the fuck gives a crap about respecting religions?

No, but it's a jackass move.

Okay, fine. Want to go back to war bonnets? I'm kind of tired of using them as an example, which is why I switched up, but we can go back to that. War bonnets have serious meaning to many Native cultures and non-Natives who are not part of any tribe wearing them is kind of douchey because all non-Natives in the the US and Canada benefit from the ethnic cleansing of Native tribes.

Hell, we might as well all just be split back up into communities by heritage, race and religion so that we don't accidentally rub up against anyone else's culture or anything.

Did you miss yesterday's conversation about influence versus appropriation? Because influence is fine and natural, but appropriation is kind of an asshole move.

If anything it's a bit silly, but an asshole move, really? No-one seems to be getting their panties in a twist about all the Jesus Dildo's and Buddy Christ's or giant gold crosses the size of your face worn as a sign of "bling" rather than any religious connotations.

If someone is so wrapped up in a symbol that it ruins their life because someone's wearing it the wrong way well, I don't know. Have a hard time feeling sorry though.

I'm sure there are people butthurt about that, but at any rate the people doing that are generally members of a culture with a strong influence of Christianity.

i don't buy that.
any meaning is not tied to their monopoly on some behavior that represents it.

Explain that further, please?

[Juana]

A person with Shiva-shorts is a) exploiting Hindu culture commercially and b) putting their ass on one of the most important deities in the religion. It's stripping the meaning off Shiva because he kind of looks cool, which is kind of an asshole move, imo.

Okay, I want all Eris tee shirts recalled.  And no more Buddy Jesus.

Who's wearing the Eris t-shirts? Anyone in a culture suffused with Christianity is fully allowed to make fun of it (and, imo, anyone who isn't, who can make fun of it in an accurate way, is welcome to do so).

[The Good Reverend Roger]

A person with Shiva-shorts is a) exploiting Hindu culture commercially and b) putting their ass on one of the most important deities in the religion. It's stripping the meaning off Shiva because he kind of looks cool, which is kind of an asshole move, imo.

Okay, I want all Eris tee shirts recalled.  And no more Buddy Jesus.

Who's wearing the Eris t-shirts? Anyone in a culture suffused with Christianity is fully allowed to make fun of it (and, imo, anyone who isn't, who can make fun of it in an accurate way, is welcome to do so).

Turns out that I'm fully allowed to make fun of whatever I please.  This may have social consequences, and I have to decide if it's worth it, but the short & skinny is that I can do as I please.  I am not bound by other peoples' decisions on this sort of thing.

Also - and this is what turns me off of activism entirely - there seems to be a rather selective standard going on here on more or less a regular basis.  Privileged White Boys need to go the fuck home.  Cis Man Tears (not trying to single you out here, just one example).  Faithfools.  I could go on, but what's the point?  The fact is, some cultures are apparently more equal than others when it comes to who gets respected and who doesn't.

[Elder Iptuous]

i don't buy that.
any meaning is not tied to their monopoly on some behavior that represents it.

Explain that further, please?

i mean that meaning is not taken from someone whose cultural behavior is being imitated. 
perhaps i'm overlooking some circumstance where this would be the case?
hm. actually, i guess it would be if the meaning is "we're not you because we do this", but if that's the only meaning, then i don't really care anyways.

[Cain]

Black Bisexual Libertarians for Jesus definitely need more mocking.

[LMNO]

taking money for sacred things strips the sacredness in many Native cultures.

If I don't believe I'm stripping the sacredness* of Christianity when I use holy water to wash my crotch, why should I believe I'm stripping the sacredness from the Sioux if I buy a tribal drum?







*And what the fuck does that mean?  A fetishistic attachment to an inanimate object?