A few thoughts on the latest round of White Guilt discussions

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Garbo, it seems to me you're talking about someone who's primary goal is to change something in the system, and other people are talking about someone who's primary goal is to make sure those around them are towing the party line.

And some of us are saying that the former becomes the latter with alarming frequency and regularity.

That is very true. Thank you for actually naming the problem.

It's not activists, or activism. It's power trippers.

That's no surprise; they're everywhere.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Okay, that's a valid distinction. Activism with a small 'a' versus Activism with a capital A, yes? Because I whole heartedly believe in activism and will defend it, but mocking Activists, I can get behind.

No, that's still a lazy shorthand box you can categorize people into without having to think about it.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I think that came off as snarky.  Let me restate it:

Apparently, I have offended some people here recently.  I am unsure whether or not I have actually been more crass than usual.  I'm pretty sure I haven't.  But the fact remains that I have offended people I respect, and I DO try to avoid repeating mistakes.  So I'm gonna tone it down a bit.

Problem is, as the man said, "If I send away my devils then my angels may go, too".  Thing is, I'm pretty sure all I HAVE is devils, one on either shoulder.  One is named "Bad", and the other is named "Worse".  Each of them has a big mallet, and they hit me upside the head when I see something that's laugh-worthy, or DUMB, or inhuman, or whatever.  It is this continuous trauma to the skull that makes me pour out the horrible.

Either I've changed or other people have changed or maybe both.  The gags I find funny are offensive and not funny to other people.  But they're the only gags I know.  I'm some sort of horrible anachronism that wanders around laughing at all the wrong things and at all the wrong jokes.  I've always known this, but I never thought I was coming off as basically Lester Maddox talking about "niggers".  Needless to say, this is very upsetting, and I don't mean "I am mad at the person that pointed this out", I mean "I am upset with my own behavior, and at not having seen what is apparently plain as day to other people."

That being said, since I cannot trust my own judgement as to what is funny and what is offensive, I'm going to have to stop laughing.  My sincerest apologies to anyone I may have offended in this manner.

I think you're blowing things out of proportion a bit, honestly. It's really just that we've had this conversation before, and perhaps you're thinking something like "Why is she taking offense again? I've already said that I don't mean her" and I'm thinking "Why is he generalizing about that again? I've already told him that it's hard not to take it personally even when he tells me he doesn't mean me" and the fact is, no matter how many times you state that you don't mean me, it's still going to be hard not to take it personally when you make disparaging comments about something I identify with, whether it's activism, feminism, health science, or any other aspect of my personal identity.

Like we talked about in text earlier, it's a bit similar to your reaction to Pixie saying what she did about privileged white boys needing a good slap. She meant a particular person, but inadvertently included you and LMNO in her statement. I think it would be pretty hypocritical of me to say something to her about that, but not say anything when you do the same thing.

Maybe it isn't that you shouldn't joke anymore, but that I'm too serious to enjoy being here anymore. I think that jokes that generalize can be funny, but that just didn't register as a joke.

That said, I accept and appreciate your apology. I'm not mad, at all, and I hope you have no hard feelings either.

No hard feelings?  Of course not. 

Sincerely,
George Wallace

I have no idea what that means.

[Juana]

See, it might be a coincidence of timing, but recently what I'm hearing from you and Pixie is how everyone's doin' it wrong.

And if it shows here, it sure as hell shows in meatspace, and that's not going to accomplish much other than to reinforce stereotypes in the po'bucker set.

In Pix's case, I believe she's talking about *one* person in particular. I was expressing frustration with a certain kind of behavior that, yes, a lot of people do. But not everyone and it wasn't meant to tar everyone who calls themselves an ally with the same icky brush.

When's the last time anyone had anything GOOD to say about their fellow activists?

I rarely participate in actual activism (ocassional letters or phone calls, or donating what I can when I can; mostly I just stick to on the ground stuff), but me. I can link you to a couple people. They aren't perfect, of course, but a) don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, b) it's harder for privileged people to be good allies (we don't always see the issues as clearly or realize exactly how much of an asshole we're being, even when we're trying not to. This isn't a defect in us, it's a defect in a society that HAS privileged groups, and as little as we might like it, there's a limit to how much control we have over our cell).

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

What are you talking about?

Not you.

Oh yeah? Then who?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I think that came off as snarky.  Let me restate it:

Apparently, I have offended some people here recently.  I am unsure whether or not I have actually been more crass than usual.  I'm pretty sure I haven't.  But the fact remains that I have offended people I respect, and I DO try to avoid repeating mistakes.  So I'm gonna tone it down a bit.

Problem is, as the man said, "If I send away my devils then my angels may go, too".  Thing is, I'm pretty sure all I HAVE is devils, one on either shoulder.  One is named "Bad", and the other is named "Worse".  Each of them has a big mallet, and they hit me upside the head when I see something that's laugh-worthy, or DUMB, or inhuman, or whatever.  It is this continuous trauma to the skull that makes me pour out the horrible.

Either I've changed or other people have changed or maybe both.  The gags I find funny are offensive and not funny to other people.  But they're the only gags I know.  I'm some sort of horrible anachronism that wanders around laughing at all the wrong things and at all the wrong jokes.  I've always known this, but I never thought I was coming off as basically Lester Maddox talking about "niggers".  Needless to say, this is very upsetting, and I don't mean "I am mad at the person that pointed this out", I mean "I am upset with my own behavior, and at not having seen what is apparently plain as day to other people."

That being said, since I cannot trust my own judgement as to what is funny and what is offensive, I'm going to have to stop laughing.  My sincerest apologies to anyone I may have offended in this manner.

I think you're blowing things out of proportion a bit, honestly. It's really just that we've had this conversation before, and perhaps you're thinking something like "Why is she taking offense again? I've already said that I don't mean her" and I'm thinking "Why is he generalizing about that again? I've already told him that it's hard not to take it personally even when he tells me he doesn't mean me" and the fact is, no matter how many times you state that you don't mean me, it's still going to be hard not to take it personally when you make disparaging comments about something I identify with, whether it's activism, feminism, health science, or any other aspect of my personal identity.

Like we talked about in text earlier, it's a bit similar to your reaction to Pixie saying what she did about privileged white boys needing a good slap. She meant a particular person, but inadvertently included you and LMNO in her statement. I think it would be pretty hypocritical of me to say something to her about that, but not say anything when you do the same thing.

Maybe it isn't that you shouldn't joke anymore, but that I'm too serious to enjoy being here anymore. I think that jokes that generalize can be funny, but that just didn't register as a joke.

That said, I accept and appreciate your apology. I'm not mad, at all, and I hope you have no hard feelings either.

No hard feelings?  Of course not. 

Sincerely,
George Wallace

I have no idea what that means.

Some guy that ran for president in 1972, on the Nazi screwhead ticket.

Because that is apparently what I am.  If I disagree or yank on someone's chain, I am the next Lester Maddox, or Bull Daley or something.  I spent the entire day in my office, sick to my stomach that anyone - you particularly - would think that of me.  On the other hand, I had the refreshing experience of a panic attack, which I haven't had in 2.5 years, so I guess it wasn't a total wash.  It's like hitting yourself in the junk with a hammer.  It feels so good when it stops.

Then I realized that the comparison was ridiculous and unfair, a false equivalence that would rate a 10 if you'd gone straight for the Hitler reference.  I also realized that it was an unbelievably shitty thing to say.  It hurt, and it was meant to hurt.

Was it wrong for me to haul on Garbo's chain like that?  Absolutely.

Was it wrong for you to say what you said?  Damn right it was.

Am I angry?  No.  I'm not sure what I am.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

What are you talking about?

Not you.

Oh yeah? Then who?

See above post.  Except that I stopped being mad.  Stopped dead in my tracks.

Now I'm something else.  Don't know what it is, yet.

[AFK]

See, it might be a coincidence of timing, but recently what I'm hearing from you and Pixie is how everyone's doin' it wrong.

And if it shows here, it sure as hell shows in meatspace, and that's not going to accomplish much other than to reinforce stereotypes in the po'bucker set.

In Pix's case, I believe she's talking about *one* person in particular. I was expressing frustration with a certain kind of behavior that, yes, a lot of people do. But not everyone and it wasn't meant to tar everyone who calls themselves an ally with the same icky brush.

When's the last time anyone had anything GOOD to say about their fellow activists?

I rarely participate in actual activism (ocassional letters or phone calls, or donating what I can when I can; mostly I just stick to on the ground stuff), but me. I can link you to a couple people. They aren't perfect, of course, but a) don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, b) it's harder for privileged people to be good allies (we don't always see the issues as clearly or realize exactly how much of an asshole we're being, even when we're trying not to. This isn't a defect in us, it's a defect in a society that HAS privileged groups, and as little as we might like it, there's a limit to how much control we have over our cell).

Uh, no, that's wrong.  In fact, I would argue, you NEED some "privileged" people as allies, particularly "privileged" people who have sway, power, connections to help move the needle.  I can think of movements to get poor veterans better access to services, if they didn't have "privileged" allies they wouldn't get anywhere.  Someone needs to have that extra bit of muscle to get legislators to move.

[Juana]

You are totally misconstruing what I said.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

b) it's harder for privileged people to be good allies

The problem is in your head, not theirs.

But it occurs to me that all these conversations have ever brought me is grief, so I'll leave it at that.

[Juana]

b) it's harder for privileged people to be good allies

The problem is in your head, not theirs.

But it occurs to me that all these conversations have ever brought me is grief, so I'll leave it at that.

No, this is a fact, Roger. 100% fact. I have to work harder, pay more attention what I say and how I say it, because I'm white and middle class. End of story. Society brought me up a specific way (which is to look down on those "below" me, and I/we don't always realize that what we're saying is asshole-ish) and I have to be more aware because of it. This goes for any privileged person. We're needed, but we kind of have to be more aware of what we're saying and doing because of it.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I think that came off as snarky.  Let me restate it:

Apparently, I have offended some people here recently.  I am unsure whether or not I have actually been more crass than usual.  I'm pretty sure I haven't.  But the fact remains that I have offended people I respect, and I DO try to avoid repeating mistakes.  So I'm gonna tone it down a bit.

Problem is, as the man said, "If I send away my devils then my angels may go, too".  Thing is, I'm pretty sure all I HAVE is devils, one on either shoulder.  One is named "Bad", and the other is named "Worse".  Each of them has a big mallet, and they hit me upside the head when I see something that's laugh-worthy, or DUMB, or inhuman, or whatever.  It is this continuous trauma to the skull that makes me pour out the horrible.

Either I've changed or other people have changed or maybe both.  The gags I find funny are offensive and not funny to other people.  But they're the only gags I know.  I'm some sort of horrible anachronism that wanders around laughing at all the wrong things and at all the wrong jokes.  I've always known this, but I never thought I was coming off as basically Lester Maddox talking about "niggers".  Needless to say, this is very upsetting, and I don't mean "I am mad at the person that pointed this out", I mean "I am upset with my own behavior, and at not having seen what is apparently plain as day to other people."

That being said, since I cannot trust my own judgement as to what is funny and what is offensive, I'm going to have to stop laughing.  My sincerest apologies to anyone I may have offended in this manner.

I think you're blowing things out of proportion a bit, honestly. It's really just that we've had this conversation before, and perhaps you're thinking something like "Why is she taking offense again? I've already said that I don't mean her" and I'm thinking "Why is he generalizing about that again? I've already told him that it's hard not to take it personally even when he tells me he doesn't mean me" and the fact is, no matter how many times you state that you don't mean me, it's still going to be hard not to take it personally when you make disparaging comments about something I identify with, whether it's activism, feminism, health science, or any other aspect of my personal identity.

Like we talked about in text earlier, it's a bit similar to your reaction to Pixie saying what she did about privileged white boys needing a good slap. She meant a particular person, but inadvertently included you and LMNO in her statement. I think it would be pretty hypocritical of me to say something to her about that, but not say anything when you do the same thing.

Maybe it isn't that you shouldn't joke anymore, but that I'm too serious to enjoy being here anymore. I think that jokes that generalize can be funny, but that just didn't register as a joke.

That said, I accept and appreciate your apology. I'm not mad, at all, and I hope you have no hard feelings either.

No hard feelings?  Of course not. 

Sincerely,
George Wallace

I have no idea what that means.

Some guy that ran for president in 1972, on the Nazi screwhead ticket.

Because that is apparently what I am.  If I disagree or yank on someone's chain, I am the next Lester Maddox, or Bull Daley or something.  I spent the entire day in my office, sick to my stomach that anyone - you particularly - would think that of me.  On the other hand, I had the refreshing experience of a panic attack, which I haven't had in 2.5 years, so I guess it wasn't a total wash.  It's like hitting yourself in the junk with a hammer.  It feels so good when it stops.

Then I realized that the comparison was ridiculous and unfair, a false equivalence that would rate a 10 if you'd gone straight for the Hitler reference.  I also realized that it was an unbelievably shitty thing to say.  It hurt, and it was meant to hurt.

Was it wrong for me to haul on Garbo's chain like that?  Absolutely.

Was it wrong for you to say what you said?  Damn right it was.

Am I angry?  No.  I'm not sure what I am.

It wasn't a comparison, it was an analogy, and the analogy, being an analogy, was not meant to be a direct comparison, but rather, something much stronger, so as to make the connection with why making shitty generalizations is hard not to take personally.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I don't have the energy or the inclination to participate in this meltdown. I'm not your enemy, I'm not trying to manipulate you, I'll still be your friend when you're done, and I won't hold it against you.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

b) it's harder for privileged people to be good allies

The problem is in your head, not theirs.

But it occurs to me that all these conversations have ever brought me is grief, so I'll leave it at that.

No, this is a fact, Roger. 100% fact. I have to work harder, pay more attention what I say and how I say it, because I'm white and middle class. End of story. Society brought me up a specific way (which is to look down on those "below" me, and I/we don't always realize that what we're saying is asshole-ish) and I have to be more aware because of it. This goes for any privileged person. We're needed, but we kind of have to be more aware of what we're saying and doing because of it.

Yeah?  Then let's have a little perspective.  The enemy is the spouse-abuser, the crooked cop, the sexist employer, or (for a uniquely monstrous example) this guy:

http://frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/saudi-offers-castrated-african-slave-for-sale-on-facebook/

It is not some silly-ass punk White kid in dreds, it is not the dumbfuck who THINKS he's on the team but then makes some dumb fucking comment about bisexual women being hot, the privileged yutz who doesn't know any better.  THESE people are your CONVERT POOL.  Are they ignorant?  Yes, they fucking are.  Are they TEACHABLE?  Yeah.  But you have to go out and DO it, not badmouth them.

Talking trash is easy.  Fixing shit is hard.

[AFK]

You are totally misconstruing what I said.

Am I?  Please clarify.