A few thoughts on the latest round of White Guilt discussions

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Where the hell do you get the idea that you have the ability to decide how "most" people are?

I don't think that either she nor I have "decided". I am guessing she gets her information from the same basic place that I get mine, which is the available psychological and sociological literature. Not all of it is right, but some things have been studied for long enough, and comprehensively enough, that I think it's reasonable to say that the understanding we (by which I mean the field of psychology, not Garbo and I) have of it is founded in a fair body of rational evidence.

[Juana]

I never said they *were* a bleeting moron. I said they're products of their society, just like you and I are. But change is possible; it just takes a fuck ton of work because "normal" is frequently "shitty".

It doesn't take any work for me at all but I also don't think I'm a special snowflake and know there are plenty like me in society.  For me normal is equality, people are individuals and should be judged and respected as such.  It's plain as day and has been for as long as I can remember. I know I'm not alone or special in this. 

JFC. You're like a wall.

[AFK]

Yeah, and I studied psychology and sociology in college too, I've been there.  But here on the ground, I have a different perspective.  Here's the thing, I do a LOT of community work.  Not just my paid job of substance abuse prevention, but I'm also involved ininititives involving poverty, adverse childhood experiences, behavioral health, etc.  So I have many and varied partners, so I know that there are many good people out there,plenty aware of culture and society, and who don't have some deep-seated or ingrained racism that they have to struggle to normalize or control or disarm.  They have the same core values I have of dignity andrespect for all.  I absolutely deny and reject the idea because I know, in practice, it isn't a universal.  I think it is a little insensitive to those who are actively trying to change things, to claim that it is.

[Juana]

[AFK]

Oh look, it's Mr. Eye-Rolly again.  I'm sorry I'm raining sunshine on your parade, but I just find this "society=shit" meme so...old.  And pointless, and unworkable.  And it ain't going to solve shit.  If you approach everything from a deficit orientation, you're going to constantly be losing.  There are strengths within our society, positives, and they are the assets to influence and affect change.  You need to be able to recognize that.

[Juana]

A society that marginalizes significant portions of the population - which ours does - is a shitty society. We can do a lot to fix it. We have. But we have a lot more to go and in order to fix the problem, that there is a fundamental problem with our society must be admitted.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I live and work on the ground, too, FYI.

I guess my question for you, then, RWHN, is, are you arguing that prejudice, including racism and sexism, simply aren't problems in America? Or are you saying that the majority of the people in the US are knowingly, deliberately, maliciously prejudiced, and are wilfully exercising discrimination?

[AFK]

I live and work on the ground, too, FYI.

I guess my question for you, then, RWHN, is, are you arguing that prejudice, including racism and sexism, simply aren't problems in America?

Jesus, of course the fuck not.

Or are you saying that the majority of the people in the US are knowingly, deliberately, maliciously prejudiced, and are wilfully exercising discrimination?

What I've been arguing against is the idea that everyone, everywhere, across the board, has some degree of racism or prejudice, including those who aren't outwardly racist but have stuff buried deep that they need to constantly struggle to keep in check.  That is what Garbo has suggested.  Because everyone is a sponge soaking up societies bad shit, and it's everyone's normal.  I reject that notion as a universal.  That's my argument.  Not that prejudice and racism don't exist, but, that it doesn't exist, universally, within everyone.  I think that is overly cynical, and I think it is false.

[Juana]

You can't live in a shitty society without picking up its memes. You can, however, remove them.

Did you ever take one of the IATs I linked to?

[AFK]

Meh, sorry, I've reached my cynicism quota for the day.  If I see "shitty society" one more time I might accidentally both my wrists.   Let some sunshine in Garbo.  That's all I can say.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I live and work on the ground, too, FYI.

I guess my question for you, then, RWHN, is, are you arguing that prejudice, including racism and sexism, simply aren't problems in America?

Jesus, of course the fuck not.

Or are you saying that the majority of the people in the US are knowingly, deliberately, maliciously prejudiced, and are wilfully exercising discrimination?

What I've been arguing against is the idea that everyone, everywhere, across the board, has some degree of racism or prejudice, including those who aren't outwardly racist but have stuff buried deep that they need to constantly struggle to keep in check.  That is what Garbo has suggested.  Because everyone is a sponge soaking up societies bad shit, and it's everyone's normal.  I reject that notion as a universal.  That's my argument.  Not that prejudice and racism don't exist, but, that it doesn't exist, universally, within everyone.  I think that is overly cynical, and I think it is false.

But the available evidence does suggest that everyone carries some unconscious prejudices which we are unaware of, and that's one of the reasons that life is a constant process of learning and growth. Including me. Including you. Prejudices are part of the way we make order of the world, and one of the reasons it's so valuable to be aware of implicit prejudice that we pick up simply by growing up in the culture that surrounds us is that it helps us shift our thinking away from it. Some people do seem to be free of prejudice, which is really quite startling, by the vast majority of us do have some prejudices. A kid whose mom's boyfriend smacked him hard one time might to this day have a prejudice against men with moustaches, and have no idea that he has it, or why. An adult who grew up seeing Middle Eastern men portrayed as terrorists might have an involuntary fear reaction when he encounters a Middle Eastern man, and not consciously recognize it.

Media plays a huge role in this, and so do the people around us. If you were raised, as I was, by people who eschew racism and encourage you to be aware of how you treat others, you have a huge, huge head start in terms of awareness and banishing prejudice. But even so, prejudice is a natural part of human existence, and odds are very good that you and I have some minor ones we're not aware of. Toward truck-driving rednecks, for example, or people who ride bicycles without a helmet (that's actually one of mine that I'm working on).

I'm afraid of men. Not cripplingly afraid, but there is always a tiny voice saying "he could turn on you" and "he could have a dirty little secret", even with the men I feel 99.9% safe with and love the most. It may have a completely explainable history, but it's a prejudice.

Prejudice, like I said, is natural. It's part of the brain's categorizing system that helps keep us safe; part of our self-preservation mechanism. Where it is a problem is when we're unaware, and we let that prejudice become discrimination.

[Dildo Argentino]

Prejudice, like I said, is natural. It's part of the brain's categorizing system that helps keep us safe; part of our self-preservation mechanism. Where it is a problem is when we're unaware, and we let that prejudice become discrimination.

Prejudice is indeed natural. Allowing one's prejudices to determine one's actions in anything other than emergency situations is not natural, neither is it long-term adaptive, except that evolutionary process is in progress now - observe Fox News. Yet basing most of one's decisions on prejudices is widespread. I strongly agree with RWHN that it is not universal and that thinking it is universal breeds cynicism and pessimism (and self-doubt) that is unrealistic and excessive.

[Faust]

A society that marginalizes significant portions of the population - which ours does - is a shitty society. We can do a lot to fix it. We have. But we have a lot more to go and in order to fix the problem, that there is a fundamental problem with our society must be admitted.

Ah now I understand, the best way to combat these problems is to insult the people you are trying to convince and roll your eyes at them.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

Meh, sorry, I've reached my cynicism quota for the day.  If I see "shitty society" one more time I might accidentally both my wrists.   Let some sunshine in Garbo.  That's all I can say.

A polished turd does reflect more sunshine, I've got to hand it to you.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Meh, sorry, I've reached my cynicism quota for the day.  If I see "shitty society" one more time I might accidentally both my wrists.   Let some sunshine in Garbo.  That's all I can say.

One person's cynicism is another person's realism.

That being said, life just isn't that bad.  Unless you're the castrated Black guy being sold on Facebook, and then I'd have to argue that it sucks a whole bunch.