Author Topic: Open Bar: We're going to build a bar, and make the drinks pay for it!  (Read 118331 times)

Freeky

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Re: Open Bar: We're going to build a bar, and make the drinks pay for it!
« Reply #540 on: May 11, 2016, 04:18:19 pm »
Shouldn't the two be equally emphasized?  Is that a dumb question?
If someone does the “Fine, you’re right, I’m clearly a terrible person, I’m Satan, I’m the worst person alive, I should just die” thing in response to criticism of their harmful behavior, they are trying to manipulate people and flip the situation around so that they look like a victim.

As a neuroscientist I have to disagree with the perception that anyone is doing mathematical modeling of cognitive intelligence, yet; intelligence as an economist defines it, yes, but economists are worlds away from actual cognition.


Although it is outside the purview of this organization to offer personal advice, we can say -- without assuming any liability -- that previous experience indicates (and recent market studies corroborate) that given the present condition of the marketplace, continuing with your present course of action is likely to result in substantial in

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Re: Open Bar: We're going to build a bar, and make the drinks pay for it!
« Reply #541 on: May 11, 2016, 04:20:14 pm »
Pretty much that.

"Learning how to use a knife" = Common Core techniques designed to help people think about how math works.
"Food Processor" = Traditional Arithmetic that produces the correct answer, but doesn't use the CC techniques.

LMNO

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Re: Open Bar: We're going to build a bar, and make the drinks pay for it!
« Reply #542 on: May 11, 2016, 04:23:07 pm »
Shouldn't the two be equally emphasized?  Is that a dumb question?

I'm not an advocate, but apparently the purpose is to teach kids how to use math that aren't going to be math or science majors.

You can memorize 12x13, but figuring out how much 37% off of a $53 purchase is both more useful and more flexible.

Vanadium Gryllz

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Re: Open Bar: We're going to build a bar, and make the drinks pay for it!
« Reply #543 on: May 11, 2016, 04:25:08 pm »
So in your metaphor, you're saying that using the knife == common core and processor == arithmetic?

Having done a (very) brief look into the principles behind CC then this seems like a good analogy. Maybe it needs a little more at the end to tie it all together? Something along the lines of Common Core is teaching us to use a knife, not dice an onion.

EDIT: Whether common core actually achieves these aims appears to be a whole nother discussion which I don't know a lot about.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 04:28:28 pm by Xaz »
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LMNO

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Re: Open Bar: We're going to build a bar, and make the drinks pay for it!
« Reply #544 on: May 11, 2016, 04:27:00 pm »
Right.  I often make the mistake of not explicitly stating the conclusion.  Thanks!

Freeky

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Re: Open Bar: We're going to build a bar, and make the drinks pay for it!
« Reply #545 on: May 11, 2016, 04:27:31 pm »
Shouldn't the two be equally emphasized?  Is that a dumb question?

I'm not an advocate, but apparently the purpose is to teach kids how to use math that aren't going to be math or science majors.

You can memorize 12x13, but figuring out how much 37% off of a $53 purchase is both more useful and more flexible.

I suppose that makes sense.  But given the trouble the monkey has with basic addition and subtraction, adding rote memorizing to the curriculum seems like it could help, too.  But then again, maybe not, because that would undermine the common core method.
If someone does the “Fine, you’re right, I’m clearly a terrible person, I’m Satan, I’m the worst person alive, I should just die” thing in response to criticism of their harmful behavior, they are trying to manipulate people and flip the situation around so that they look like a victim.

As a neuroscientist I have to disagree with the perception that anyone is doing mathematical modeling of cognitive intelligence, yet; intelligence as an economist defines it, yes, but economists are worlds away from actual cognition.


Although it is outside the purview of this organization to offer personal advice, we can say -- without assuming any liability -- that previous experience indicates (and recent market studies corroborate) that given the present condition of the marketplace, continuing with your present course of action is likely to result in substantial in

Q. G. Pennyworth

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Re: Open Bar: We're going to build a bar, and make the drinks pay for it!
« Reply #546 on: May 11, 2016, 05:16:04 pm »
Ultimately, I think the issue with common core math is that the way they test it isn't great for kids who aren't wholly motivated by good grades and teacher praise. The "I did what you told me" crowd will always go for the food processor, because "what you told me" is cut up an onion. Asking kids to teach a fictional person how to do the problem might help with the motivation to do it the common core way, or maybe introducing a problem that is too hard for them to reasonably brute force in their heads (also how you spot the autistic math savants early lol).

I've got two kids in school right now, one is flying through it and one still hates the show your workiness.

Vanadium Gryllz

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Re: Open Bar: We're going to build a bar, and make the drinks pay for it!
« Reply #547 on: May 11, 2016, 05:43:26 pm »
Ultimately, I think the issue with common core math is that the way they test it isn't great for kids who aren't wholly motivated by good grades and teacher praise. The "I did what you told me" crowd will always go for the food processor, because "what you told me" is cut up an onion. Asking kids to teach a fictional person how to do the problem might help with the motivation to do it the common core way, or maybe introducing a problem that is too hard for them to reasonably brute force in their heads (also how you spot the autistic math savants early lol).

I've got two kids in school right now, one is flying through it and one still hates the show your workiness.

It seems like common core caters more towards kids who are comfortable as conceptual thinkers. If you find it difficult to understand the abstractions that a lot of maths involves then you're probably not gonna be keen on the method that wants to expose those ideas. The 'traditional' rote method will be easier for some people to understand and regurgitate on a test.

Having said that, it seems to me that the further you go in maths the more and more you're going to have to deal with concepts that aren't easy to visualise. Once you've hit about 11 (High school?) shouldn't you be past learning basic multiplication/division/addition etc? Teaching common core as a baseline sounds like a good idea. However, it will be important that the teachers are able to properly articulate and expand on the ideas that common core presents. If the teachers don't understand it or can't pass that knowledge on effectively I can see that common core quickly becomes a lot more frustrating for students than traditional maths.
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Re: Open Bar: We're going to build a bar, and make the drinks pay for it!
« Reply #548 on: May 11, 2016, 05:58:34 pm »
One would think the teacher or test would explicitly say or stress to solve the problem in the way it had been taught to you while you were in class.  As a Childless American, I have no idea if that's the case or not.

I also suspect that some of the homework is being done by some parents, who haven't spent time learning the lessons, and answer it the way they were taught; then when the kid gets it "wrong", they freak out.

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Open Bar: We're going to build a bar, and make the drinks pay for it!
« Reply #549 on: May 11, 2016, 06:40:25 pm »
Let me know what you guys think about this train of thought before I post it on social media:

An explanation of all those Common Core v Traditional Arithmetic complaints:

Let’s say you’re in a cooking class, one which is graded by a teacher.

You spend a semester learning how to sharpen, hold, and slice with a six-inch chef’s knife.

You have a test where you must dice an onion.

You peel an onion and throw it into a food processor.

Even though you end up with a diced onion, you didn’t use any skills you were taught that semester, and the teacher says you did it “wrong”.

You complain that the onion ended up diced, and argue that using a knife is stupid.



 

I'm going to argue that, in that the knife might not always be the stupid way to do it, and you should probably be proficient in using a knife if you are going to be a cook.

It is worth noting that in the military, 80% of training time is done with all the high tech doodads off, so that you retain the basics.
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Open Bar: We're going to build a bar, and make the drinks pay for it!
« Reply #550 on: May 11, 2016, 06:43:35 pm »


I'm not an advocate, but apparently the purpose is to teach kids how to use math that aren't going to be math or science majors.


What this is doing is raising two distinct classes of student.  The second kind are the serfs.

Fact:  We taught arithmetic by rote for something to the order of 150 years, and it worked.  At higher levels of math, the rote method becomes less useful, as you know, but at the bottom end, you gotta memorize the multiplication tables.
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Re: Open Bar: We're going to build a bar, and make the drinks pay for it!
« Reply #551 on: May 11, 2016, 06:44:41 pm »

It seems like common core caters more towards kids who are comfortable as conceptual thinkers.

And that's great, but education by its very definition involves stepping out of your comfort zone, repeatedly.
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Vanadium Gryllz

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Re: Open Bar: We're going to build a bar, and make the drinks pay for it!
« Reply #552 on: May 11, 2016, 07:09:45 pm »

I also suspect that some of the homework is being done by some parents, who haven't spent time learning the lessons, and answer it the way they were taught; then when the kid gets it "wrong", they freak out.

Heh good point, I hadn't considered that.

Let me know what you guys think about this train of thought before I post it on social media:

An explanation of all those Common Core v Traditional Arithmetic complaints:

Let’s say you’re in a cooking class, one which is graded by a teacher.

You spend a semester learning how to sharpen, hold, and slice with a six-inch chef’s knife.

You have a test where you must dice an onion.

You peel an onion and throw it into a food processor.

Even though you end up with a diced onion, you didn’t use any skills you were taught that semester, and the teacher says you did it “wrong”.

You complain that the onion ended up diced, and argue that using a knife is stupid.



 

I'm going to argue that, in that the knife might not always be the stupid way to do it, and you should probably be proficient in using a knife if you are going to be a cook.


I think that's the same point LMNO is making.

I don't see why both techniques can't be taught alongside each other. They both 'work' and some people click with one better than the other.

I loved maths throughout school so maybe I am coming at it from a different perspective to many.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 07:11:35 pm by Xaz »
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Vanadium Gryllz

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Re: Open Bar: We're going to build a bar, and make the drinks pay for it!
« Reply #553 on: May 11, 2016, 07:28:20 pm »

It seems like common core caters more towards kids who are comfortable as conceptual thinkers.

And that's great, but education by its very definition involves stepping out of your comfort zone, repeatedly.

Yeah but it's not those kids who are gonna have trouble either way you spin it. I don't really know what point I was making here - maybe that those who just want to learn their times tables and then drop maths are going to have even more trouble with CC style learning.

I think I agree with you that this is gonna create a two-tier classroom. However, hasn't it always been like this? When I was at school we had a 'top set' who learned more advanced material than the rest.
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Re: Open Bar: We're going to build a bar, and make the drinks pay for it!
« Reply #554 on: May 11, 2016, 08:04:00 pm »
I'm going to argue that, in that the knife might not always be the stupid way to do it, and you should probably be proficient in using a knife if you are going to be a cook.

Good point, and I do think it's useful to have some of the tables memorized. 

The main argument I'm seeing though, is that people are seeing two different things as "wrong".  The teachers are seeing that the kids haven't learned the techniques, and the parents (usually, it's the parents) are seeing that the answer was right, so who cares about the technique?